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So much for the Mr. OPDYKE-Not the slightest. I will say put in the minority. Without parties we could to the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. not have good government. Townsend] that I speak in all kindness, and with original plan of Mr. Hare. We have before us the kindliest feelings. I have been an interested not that plan, but the new plan of the gentleman listener to the discussion of the question now from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and a somewhat before the committee, without any intention of different form of that plan proposed by the gentlejoining in that discussion, because I felt that the man from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. I am willing little attention I had given it placed me in to concede that neither of these would utterly a condition in which I can better perform my destroy party organization, but I am entirely duty by receiving instruction than by attempting satisfied they would do much to destroy its effito impart it. But, sir, in the course of the dis- ciency, its vigilance and its usefulness. Another cussion there have been many views advanced objection is that they would transfer what power that have somewhat surprised me, and among remains to the people in the selection of others I must express some surprise at the per- their representatives, to the politicians. That sistent efforts which have been made to intro- power is in a great measure already_taken of the people. As I said duce into the Constitution of this State a new and from the mass untried idea; and that is the representation of before, it is one of the inevitable and incidental minorities, a plan involved in the amendment evils of party organization. A nomination which now before the committee. That question and is made by the political organization itself, withthe question of large districts, which is necessarily out the consent of the mass of the people, is, in linked with it, are the questions now before very many instances, tantamount to an election. What part would the committee. It is in relation to these, and more The plans proposed would make all nominations to explain the reasons which will govern my vote, tantamount to an election. than in the hope of throwing further light on the the people have then in selecting their repreminds of others, that I desire to say a few words. sentatives, and what motive would remain to The representation of minorities is an idea started parties for vigilance, activity, watchfulness and in Great Britain very recently; it has not passed fidelity to the interests of the people? They through the ordeal or the crucible of scientific would rest supine under a conviction that they discussion; it has never been tried in practice would get a large portion of the power and even in the smallest degree, and it would seem emoluments of office without effort. But, sir, to me most unreasonable, most unwise, if not the unanswerable objection as it seems to me dangerous, to attempt to place it in the Constitu- is, that it is a proposition to take an idea tion of our State, where it must last for several which has never been tried in practice, and twenty. place it in the Constitution of the State. years at least, and perhaps, for According to should attempt to do anything of the kind, all we What is it, Mr. Chairman ? the theory first started by Mr. Hare, and so warm- should do is to permit the Legislature to give ly indorsed by John Stuart Mill, its effect would that power in local elections, such as municipal be (and I have examined it carefully enough to or town elections, or something of that sort. I make that assertion with entire confidence) to have no doubt there may be merit in it, but destroy party organization. There are, perhaps, it remains for investigation and practice to deter. some who believe that this would be a blessing. I mine that point. It is altogether too soon for us to am not of that class. I am aware that there are embody it in the fundamental law of the State. many evils incident to party organization. But I But, sir, I object to it for another reason, and it is necessitates the large territorial dishold them as necessary for securing a much greater this, that good. I believe, sir, that parties are essential to tricts. All the reasons that I have heard advanced I believe that in favor of the large districts have failed to satisfy the preservation of freedow. republican institutions would endure but a very me of their wisdom. I was very much surprised short time after their destruction. The principle yesterday to hear the eloquent gentleman from on which party organization is grounded is this: Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] pass the extraordinary It is to ignore differences of opinion on minor sub-eulogy he did upon what he termed the Albany I agree with him entirely that the jects and matters of detail for the sake of securing the success of more important measures. It is tendency of large districts is to place more orly by that means that States can make progress. power in the hands of the central political power When one reform is securely accomplished, parties at the seat of government. I apprehend that that band together to secure another and another. gentleman referred, not to the regency of his own These are the steps by which we advance to a party, but to the regency of the democratic Without party organization party, which, when that party higher civilization. we could not secure them at all. That is one of power in this State, controlled its action the advantages of parties; and they have another and governed its policy. It belonged to a Without that vigilance and party for which I have no right to speak. which is even greater. watchfulness which is inherent in party, and which I will, however, say this, that in my judgment, it is absolutely essential to its success, we could not was infinitely superior to that central power which expect fidelity in the administration of the govern- has governed the party to which I belong. I cannot ment. We all know that when the party in power believe that the gentleman intended his eulogy swerves a single step from the right, the oppo- for the central political power of tho republican site party stands ready to take advantage of it. It cannot depart even in a very trifling degree from the line of strict duty and fidelity to the interests of the public, without being ousted and

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party, which has existed here ever since its organization, and which has stretched its long arm to the State conventions to control its nominations, and to the senate and assembly districts and

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The question was put on the division, and it was declared lost.

The question was then announced on the second part of the amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker, as follows:

endeavored to control them, and, if failing in in the city of New York to elect every Senthat, when those elected have come up to this ator. city, getting them within its folds and moulding The question was then announced on the first them to its base purposes here. If the gentle- part of the amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker, as man can pass a eulogy on such a power as that, follows: his experience must differ from mine. For one, SEC. 2. The Legislature for 1868 shall divide I am in favor of holding the representative the State into eight senate districts, to be numstrictly responsible to his constituents, and to bered from one to eight inclusive; each district bring him as near to them as possible. That to contain, as nearly as may be, an equal number is the way we shall secure fidelity. I was of inhabitants, excluding aliens. No county shall equally surprised to hear the gentleman from be divided except it shall contain a greater popu Ontario [Mr. Folger] pleading for the independ-lation than is necessary for one senate district. ence of the representative, and for the quadruple system of representation in order to divide the responsibility. If there is any force in the argument, it struck me then, as I feel it must have struck the minds of almost every one who heard him, as an argument against rather than in favor of large districts. What we want is direct, immediate responsibility of the representative to his constituency. This thing called independence on the part of the representative, if it means anything, it means independence to do what the constituency does not desire, and what will not promote the public good. Whenever we see a representative becoming independent, it is with a view of promoting his own interest and not that of the public. For these reasons I voted last evening in favor of small districts; I am satisfied they are best, and for the reasons I have stated I shall feel constrained to vote against the proposition of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker].

There shall be thirty-two Senators, four to be elected in each senate district. The term of office shall be four years, except that the Senators chosen at the first election, in the first, third, fifth and seventh districts shall hold their offices for two years only.

The question was then put on the second part as read, and it was declared lost.

The question was then announced on the third part as the amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker, as follows:

The first election shall take place at the general election in 1868, and no elector shall, either at the first or at any subsequent election, vote for more than three candidates.

Mr. A. J. PARKER-I have no right to be heard without the consent of the Convention, but I would like to answer a few of the objections made by the gentleman from Chenango [Mr. Prindle].

Mr. FOLGER-I object.

The question was then put on the last part of the amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker, and it was declared lost.

Mr. FLAGLER-I offer the following amendment: Insert after the following words: "The State shall be divided into thirty-two senatorial districts, each one of which shall choose one Senator," the following:

Mr. PRINDLE-I do not wish to make a speech. but I desire for two or three minutes to call the attention of the committee to that portion of the plan proposed by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], in which he proposes to give a representation to minorities. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], last evening stated that this plan would allow the majority in the city of New York to elect all the Senators sent from New York. He stated this was a mistake because it would require a majority of four-fifths in order to elect. Now, sir, suppose that here is a sentorial district in which there are twenty "And the term of office shall be four years. thousand votes (I take this small number, because The Legislature, at its first session after the adopit is convenient for my illustration). Suppose tion of this Constitution, shall make this division the majority have twelve thousand votes, the minority have eight thousand, and the majority make four sets of tickets. Suppose A, B, C and D, are the candidates proposed by the majority. They make one set of tickets upon which they place A, B and C, they make another set upon which they place B, C and D, and they make another set upon which they place C, D and A, and another on which they place D, A and B. If they can distribute those votes equally among the voters belonging to the party of the majority, and they could easily do so by having men at the polls to distribute them equally, the twelve thousand majority in that senatorial district could cast for each of their four Senators nine thousand votes apiece, more than the minority of eight the full term of four years." thousand could possibly cast for any one person; I have a single word of explanation to make in therefore, I say that the gentleman from West-regard to the change I propose in this substitute. chester [Mr. Greeley] was entirely correct when The proposition is to make the Senators elected, he stated that this plan would allow the majority one-half every two years instead of being elec

into thirty-two senate districts, which shall be numbered from one to thirty-two inclusive. Said districts shall be formed of contiguous territory, and, as near as may be of an equal number of inhabitants, excluding aliens; and no county shall be divided in the formation of a senate district except such as are equitably entitled to more than one Senator.

"At the first election under said arrangement of districts, the Senators elected in districts having odd numbers shall vacate their offices at the end of two years, and those elected in districts having even numbers at the end of four years; and as vacancies occur by the expiration of term they shall be filled by the election of Senators for

ted one-quarter each year. My preference is for the proposition as I made or proposed to make it, to have one-quarter of the Senators elected each year. So many of the gentlemen have sug⚫ gested to me on this floor their preference for the election of one-half of the Senate, that I have changed the proposition and presented it in the form I have read. It will chauge the Senate by an election every two years, one-half being elected every two years instead of one-quarter each year, thus taking four years to change the entire body of the Senate. At this late hour I will not further detain the committee, because the proposition is so simple that all can comprehend it; and I will leave it for the committee to dispose of as they, in their judgment, shall deem expedient.

Mr. HARDENBURGH-I move that the committee do now rise. We have performed arduous labors this day, and it is well known that we have been invited out."

Mr. FOLGER-I rise to a point of order. A motion for the committee to rise is not debatable. The CHAIRMAN - The point of order is well taken.

The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Hardenburgh, and it was declared lost.

Mr. BOWEN Are amendments now in order? The CHAIRMAN-In the opinion of the Chair another amendment is not now in order, there being two pending.

will be in order to test the sense of the committee by a resolution upou each of these propositions separately; first, that the sense of the committee be taken upon the question of a four-year senaatorial term; second, whether the terms of office of one-quarter or one-half of the Senators shall expire each year.

The CHAIRMAN In the opinion of the Chair, resolutions are not now in order.

Mr. LANDON- Before a vote is taken on this question I would like to ask the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler] what his object is in directing the Legislature to make a new apportionment of the senate districts, unless it is to supersede the apportionment which has already been adopted by this committee? If that is the object I would like to have it expressed.

Mr. FLAGLER-The proposition I have made I think is very plain. I think that any word of explanation on my part is unnecessary. If the genleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] will recall the words of that amendment he will observe that it proposes to strike out that part of the proposition as it stands before the committee and insert a proposition to refer the question of the appor tionment of the districts to the Legislature. I do it because I prefer that method. I think it better it should be thus referred to the Legislature than to take the time of this committee and encounter the difficulties which would surround it if we attempt to make this arrangement.

Mr. BALLARD-While I agree with the prop

Mr. FLAGLER-I would suggest that if the change I have made does not meet the approba-osition of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagtion of gentlemen, it would conform to my own first choice to have it passed as I originally drew it. If there is any difficulty I ask for a division of the question.

Mr. LEE-The amendment I proposed was to try the question before the committee, as to whether they prefer to elect one-quarter of thirty two Senators every year, or one-half every two years. I should prefer to have one-quarter elected every year distributed throughout the State.

ler], in regard to the terms of office and classilication, I do not agree with him in that portion of his amendment which strikes out the present senate districts of this State. It is that part of my amendment which was acted upon last night and adopted. The proposition of the gentleman from Niagara is to strike that out. It would have suited me and I think a majority of the Convention better, if his proposition, instead of striking out, had been to add after the words "each of which Mr. BICKFORD - Could we not have unan-senate districts shall choose one Senator," imous consent that this amendment be these words: "who shall be chosen at the withdrawn to take a vote on the amend general election which shall be held next after ment offered by the gentleman from Rich the adoption of this Constitution, sixteen of moud [Mr. E. Brooks]? If it is determined whom, namely, those elected in the first, third, by the committee that there shall be thirty-fifth, seventh, ninth, eleventh, thirteenth, two Senators, and as this proposition will fifteenth, seventeenth, nineteenth, twenty-first, take the county of Jefferson from the third twenty-third, twenty-fifth, twenty-seventh, twendistrict, had we not better take a vote on the ty-ninth and thirty-first districts, shall hold amendment I refer to, so that we can consider two their offices for two years, and those elected from propositions which are really germane to the sub- the second, fourth, sixth, eighth, tenth, twelfth, ject at the same time? fourteenth, sixteenth, eighteenth, twentieth, A division of the amendment was called for. twenty-second, twenty-fourth, twenty-sixth, Mr. BARKER-It seems to me that as twenty-eighth, thirtieth and thirty-second disthe substitute offered by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] has been voted upon by the committee and adopted, the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] must fall, as it is not germane to any proposition that is left, and that another amendment might be entertained by the Chair without the violation of any rule, because it is entirely oppoBite.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion the amendment now pending is in order.

Mr. SPENCER-I wish to inquire whether it

tricts, shall hold their offices for four years, and every two years thereafter, beginning with the sixteen districts first named, and then with the sixteen districts secondly above named, there shall be elected sixteen Senators, who shall hold their offices for four years from and including the first day of January next following their election." I do not believe in meddling with the districts as now organized. It would be better, if we stand upon the single district system as now organized, and which apportionment has been made with full deliberation and care, to have a

think it wiser to conform to that amendment as suggested by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] than to leave this matter to the Legislature. | Mr. KETCHAM-The Legislatures have varied the apportionment provided for in the Constitu

four years' term of office, classifying the Senators in
the manner I have indicated. I call for a division
of this question so that the Convention may un-
derstand what they are voting upon, in the first
place, in regard to the term of office, and then the
next question is whether there shall be a distribution.
tion of districts as they now exist, or whether that
distribution shall be thrown over.

Mr. DALY-Do I understand the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] as willing to accept that portion of the proposition of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler], making the term of office four years instead of two?

Mr. BALLARD - Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be on the first part of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, as follows:

"Insert after the words, 'the State shall be divided into thirty-two senatorial districts, each one of which shall choose one Senator,' the following and the term of office shall be four years.' "" The question was then put on that portion of the amendment, and it was declared carried. A count was called for.

Mr. BICKFORD-I hope that the amendment will be voted down.

The CHAIRMAN-Discussion on the question is not now in order.

Mr. BICKFORD-I supposed it had been held that it was.

Mr. BALLARD-Let me inquire if an affirmative vote on the proposition strikes out the present apportionment.

Mr. FLAGLER-It will not. I do not desire to have any misunderstanding with regard to this. If this clause is adopted, the term of office will be four years.

The question was again put on the first part of the amendment offered by Mr. Flagler, and it was declared adopted.

Mr. FLAGLER-I move to amend the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], as it now stands, by striking out all after the words "four years," just adopted, and inserting the following, which is the second clause of the amendment I offered:

Mr. DALY-Those exceptions confirm the existence of the general rule.

Mr. E. A. BROWN-I simply rise to ask a question so that there will be no misunderstanding about it, whether the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] as adopted last night, includes the senate districts precisely as they were formed by the Legislature of 1866. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair so understands

it.

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Mr. BICKFORD-I apprehend that it is equitable to adopt this amendment and have a new apportionment for this reason. We propose a different basis of suffrage in the present Constitution from what has heretofore existed. The present apportionment was made on the basis of excluding from the representative population of the State aliens and persons of color not taxed. Now we propose to admit persons of color to suffrage, and of course equity requires a different apportionment. That is all I have to say on the subject.

The question was put on the second part of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, and, on a division, it was declared lost.

Mr. BALLARD-Is an amendment now in order?

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman that an amendment is not in order, as we have not yet got through with the amendment of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler].

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the third portion of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, as follows:

"At the first election under said arrangement of districts, the Senators elected in districts having odd numbers shall vacate their offices at the end of two years, and those elected in districts having even numbers at the end of four years, and as vacancies occur by the expiration of term, they shall be filled by the election of Senators for the full term of four years."

"The Legislature, at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, shall make this division into thirty-two senate districts, which shall be numbered from one to thirty-two inclu- Mr. EVARTS-I take it that on this question, sive. Said districts shall be formed of contiguous those who vote affirmatively, prefer a division of territory, and as near as may be an equal num- the Senate and an election of Senators biennially, ber of inhabitants, excluding aliens, and no county and those who vote negatively prefer to divide shall be divided in the formation of a senate the Senators into four classes and to elect onedistrict. except such as are equitably entitled to quarter annually. more than one Senator."

Mr. ALVORD-I shall vote against this propoMr. CORBETT―The point I desire to ascertain sition for this simple reason. I am opposed, is whether the adoption of that amendment will and decidedly opposed (and if gentlemen strike out the apportionment presented in the will recollect they will see that that must amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. be the feeling of the Convention), to a Ballard]. portion of this State electing a portion of Mr. FLAGLER-This amendment does; but I the Senate at different times and periods from would be glad to have the vote of the committee the entire State electing a Senate. I am in favor on that point to test its pleasure. of a four years' continuance in office of a Senator.

Mr. DALY-I have but one suggestion to I am in favor of it because it is the best thing we make in reference to the amendment. Hitherto can get, but I am not in favor of the western in the Constitutions of this State, the apportion- portion of this State electing at the end of two meut has been fixed in the Constitution itself and years and the eastern portion of it electing at the has not been determined by the Legislature. Ilend of two years after that.

Mr. FLAGLER-It does not propose such a division.

Mr. ALVORD-I only put this by way of illustration. You commence at No. 1 to elect at the end of two years, and No. 2 at the end of four years, then district No. 1 again at the end of six years, and so on. What I object to is an election over only half of the State at the same time for Senators.

Mr. CORBETT―The illustration of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] would be worth something if the odd districts were in one part of the State and the even in the other.

The question was put on the last portion of the amendment of Mr. Flagler, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 69 to 32.

The CHAIRMAN-The question now is on the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Richmond, Mr. E. Brooks, to the second section as an ended.

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Strike out the word "thirty-two" wherever it occurs and insert "sixteen." Amend direction as to number of Senators for each district by striking out "one" and inserting "two," making two Senat rs from each district, the Legislature so to regulate the term of office that eight Senators shall be elected every year.

Mr. FLAGLER-I rise to a point of order, that the amendment of the gentleman is in direct conflict with the affirmative vote on the amendrent already adopted.

The CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of opinion that the amendment can be received.

Mr. HATCH-I do not propose to take any appeal from the decision of the Chair, but it seems to me a very plain question that we are going over it again. We passed upon it two or three times this evening

Mr. BALLARD-This proposed amendment involves the overthrow of the vote last evening establishing thirty-two districts in the State. It is not true to the extent that has been stated, that there would be no election except every four years; elections would occur every two years. By laying that feature aside we lose the benefit of two years' experience in the Senate constantly, and it has been admitted that there was a need of experience in the Senate.

Mr. RATHBUN-I rise to a question of order. I would like to know what question is pending before the committee?

The CHAIRMAN-The pending question is the motion of Mr. Schoonmaker, to strike out the word "thirty-two" wherever it occurs, and insert "sixteen," and to strike out the word "one" and insert "two."

Mr. RATHBUN-Did the Chair decide that the amendment was proper?

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The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion it proper.

Mr. RATHBUN-Then I submit that there is no question before the Convention, that the gentleman [Mr. Ballard] is wrong, and there can be no appeal.

Mr. BALLARD-I am arguing the question of the amendment, not the question of order.

Mr. RATHBUN-The gentleman is arguing that it is re-opening the decision of the Convention upon his amendment. That is his argument

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands that he is arguing the impropriety of the committee adopting the amendment.

Mr. RATHBUN-That is an argument against the decision of the Chair. [Laughter.]

Mr. BALLARD-When the vote is taken it ought to be understood by the committee what the effect of adopting this amendment of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker] will be. It will be to overthrow the thirty-two or single district system, and to adopt the sixteen district system.

Mr. BARKER-I do not rise to make a speech, so gentlemen need not put on long faces. I voted for the term of four years with the expectation that before the subject was disposed of the other propositions which bear upon the amendment would be considered. I think electors should be allowed to participate in the choice of Senator oftener than once in four years. The dividing of the State into small constituencies, aud then silencing the voice of the people for four years, that it would not be heard in one of the representative departments of the government, I say, is an injustice. If we had the large districts, and had four Senators in each, and elect Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I did not intend say. one every year, then each elector in the districting a word on this subject, but inasmuch as others could vote and his sentiment would come fresh into have spoken on it I wish to state the object of it. the Legislature each year. Now, I wish that It is now in contemplation, as I understand it, to this amendment as proposed may be adopted. have the term of the Senator four years, and to Then in each two years as they succeed have an election every two years for sixteen Sen. until the Constitution shall be amended again each elector may vote for a Senator, and he is oftener heard on the popular subjects which are submitted to the people, and I beg delegates not to forget how often the popular issues of the day are changing, how often the people desire to be heard on this subject of representation in the Legislature of the State.

The Chair announced the question to be on the amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker.

Mr. HATCH-I would like to know whether that is not bringing up the question again of thirty-two districts, practically?

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair has just decided that the amendment is in order.

ators, to have sixteen Senators go out every two years. My object is to divide the State into sixteen senatorial districts, giving two Senators to each district, then having the term of office four years, and having an election in every senate district for one Senator every two years.

The question was then put upon the amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 40 to 69. Mr. SCHELL -I beg leave to offer the following amendment to section 2 as amended: Strike out after the words "four years," and insert:

"And shall be constituted as follows: An enu

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