Well, I would say one thing more, that at the same time he was boss of MGB Section O, in the state security in Moscow, he also has to answer before the Central Committee of the Communist Party about all religious activities in the Soviet Union. Mr. SOURWINE. I think the record should show at this point that this description of Major General Karpov by Petrov was corroborated by Colonel Yuri Rastvorov before this committee on April 12, 1956, in our series on "Scope of Soviet Activity in the United States," part 14, pages 780 and 781. Now in 1947 you say you were transferred to Moscow ? Mr. DERIABIAN. In 1947 I was transferred to Moscow. Mr. SOURWINE. And you worked there in the counter intelligence section of Okrana? Mr. DERIABIAN. I was working under a section of the Okrana. Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. For how long? Mr. DERIABIAN. From 1947 until April 1952. Mr. SOURWINE. Did your duties involve the investigation of candidates for membership in Okrana and a periodic check on the members of Okrana? Mr. DERIABIAN. It was my duty-well, generally, those who went to work in Okrana, and who were already working in Okrana. We checked them about once a year. Some of them who worked to the leaders twice a year. In this case, say, about religious, sometimes I received a letter from General Karpov's section, because somebody in his home, a child, or some wife or other person, a grandmother attended the church. Actually, all reports about religion went from General Karpov's office, his Section O. Or if they had an ikon in their home, that was sufficient. Mr. SOURWINE. Can you tell, Mr. Deriabian, what was the attitude of Okrana with regard to religious activities by its members or agents, was it frowned upon? Mr. DERIABIAN. All members of Okrana at that time were members of the Communist Party or a member of Komsomol, the Communist youth organization. It is impossible-if you are not a member, you cannot work for Okrana. Another thing, in the investigation, or through checking we found that some officers or some person who was going to work in Okrana, was religious, or his wife was religious, or they had a child, or they had ikons, they could not work for Okrana. While they stayed in Okrana if we found they had religious feelings, or something else like it, they could not stay in the Communist Party or the Komsomol, they lost their job. Mr. SOURWINE. In other words, you could not have religious connections or participate in religious observances and remain a member of the Communist Party or of Okrana? Mr. DERIABIAN. You are right. Of course, I believe some of us were believers, and so on. Mr. SOURWINE. You mean that even some of the members of Okrana had a depth of religious belief which led them to do these things which the organization prohibited? Mr. DERIABIAN. Yes. Well, actually, it was impossible-some of them believed in God, and they are religious. Mr. SOURWINE. But if they were found out? Mr. SOURWINE. What can you tell us about the ramifications of Major General Karpov's organization? Mr. DERIABIAN. Well, section O was organized April 1947. Before that it was another special religious section under the secret police. Before 1947 it was the secret police of the NKVD we called it at that time. In 1947 it was being reorganized. And they started to call it MGB, the Ministry of State Security. And they organized a section-actually started organizing it in 1946, and actually completed it sometime in March 1947. And Major General Karpov was appointed to be the boss of that section. This section has subsections and other sections. Each republic, for instance, has a section or a subsection. It is according to the religious activity in each republic. If there is more religious activities in some area, there are more. And each Province has General Karpov's officers in every city, where they work in KGB, taking care of all church activities or activists' work. Most of the priests in the Soviet Union, and the religious people who help the priests, they are some kind of agents of KGB or the MGB, or were at that time. It is impossible in the Soviet Union to serve God without serving the state security. You give some information for state security about religious activities; otherwise you cannot attend the church. Some of the priests became agents of the state security because there was nothing else for them to do. When the state security recruited priests and ministers as their agents, they always said, "You will serve us or we will put you in jail, according to your activities." Mr. SOURWINE. In other words, all church activity was subjected and subjugated under an arm of the state? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. And all church activities of the various denominations were coordinated by the state, and they were, also, sharply curtailed, were they not-the activities of the churches were cut downthey were prohibited from doing the things they had done before? Mr. DERIABIAN. No; they were never given permission, as you said. It was always, since 1931 or 1932, under state security and the Communist Party. Mr. SOURWINE. At all times since 1931 or 1932? Mr. DERIABIAN. Yes. Mr. SOURWINE. Even during the so-called period of tolerance? Mr. DERIABIAN. This was just propaganda. Mr. SOURWINE. That was just propaganda? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Actually, General Karpov, being boss of the religious sections at the same time, was the head of the higher Communist Party school, which is under the central committee of the Soviet Communist Party. It was merely making a gesture about activities and how to make antireligious propaganda. Mr. SOURWINE. As I understand it, or understand you to say, no one was allowed to be a priest or to participate substantially in religious activity unless he served the NKVD? Mr. DERIABIAN. I said so. Well, according to my experiences, I met some of these priests and bishops in the Soviet Union, sometimes when they were in Austria, and they were NKVD agents. And I know exactly that all persons who were going into the seminary or attending the theological schools, before they go there, they were checked, all of them, and if it is possible, recruit all of them, because it happened like this-all of the people who like to join in the seminary or the theological institute, they write a report to the Council on Orthodox Affairs headed by General Karpov, who is on the Council of Ministers. General Karpov is the boss of the section and at the same time he gives orders as to the province sections, to check all of the people, and to include them and ask them to serve MGB. Sometimes, as far as I know, from Karpov's section of security, they started at the theological schools and seminaries, and would spend a few years and become a priest and at the same time they were officers of state security. Mr. SOURWINE. They remained officers of state security while they studied for the priesthood and actually after they became priests? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. I want to be sure I understand this matter of the parallel organizations. You had many local branches of section O; is that right? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. Then you, also, had General Karpov's Council on Orthodox Affairs? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. Which paralleled the organization of section O; is that right? Mr. DERIABIAN. Well, no; it is not exactly right. If you say Soviet Government, this is state security. Here is General Karpov under the Soviet Government, the Council of Ministers. He is boss of the Council on Orthodox Affairs. Here he is the top of the section. Mr. SOURWINE. The same man? Mr. DERIABIAN. The same man. Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Then he has a branch here in all of the provinces to coordinate activities. And he at the same time has branches, you see, how to stop religious activities. Mr. SOURWINE. Yes. Mr. DERIABIAN. In the same region. Mr. SOURWINE. On one side as the active head of the church, the state church, he was promoting religion? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. And on the other side he was inhibiting religion? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. Did he do both jobs equally well? Mr. DERIABIAN. I would say so-well, they did not shoot him yet. Mr. SOURWINE. Was he a better inhibitor of religion than a promoter of religion? Mr. DERIABIAN. I would say he is more for communism than-he works for the Communist Party, the central committee. Of course, it is impossible-it would not be correct if you say all of the bosses of these branches, you see, members of the state security-some of them, they are really just persons, but most of them are members of the Communist Party, and each section would like to know the kind of activities that is going on, to open the church. Here they get information to take measures to stop this thing. And then they will answer to the office what to do and how to do it, what kind of answer to give the believers. Mr. SOURWINE. In other words, another point I think we should clear up for the record is this: You spoke of many of these priests and coreligious leaders being agents of MGB. Mr. DERIABIAN. Yes. Mr. SOURWINE. We do not confuse agents with regular members, do we an agent is not the same thing as a member? Mr. DERIABIAN. No; it is different. A member of the state security actually is an officer Mr. SOURWINE. That is a career job? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. This is a steady job. An agent of the state takes on duty to get some information. Mr. SOURWINE. I suppose not only to get information, but also to do small jobs? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. To carry stories back and forth? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. To maneuver things for the KGB? Mr. DERIABIAN. You are right. Mr. SOURWINE. As I understand it, the members are in accordance with the table of organization, they have a certain number, but the agents may be an indefinite number, is that right? Mr. DERIABIAN. You are right. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It depends upon the religious activities. Yes, the number of agents, that number is flexible. It depends entirely on the strength of religious feelings and the activities in any one area. The net work is much greater if there is much of it. If there is little of it, then they do not need so many agents for that purpose. Mr. SOURWINE. Did I understand you correctly to say that it was the objective to recruit as agents, if possible, all of these candidates for the priesthood? Mr. DERIABIAN. That is right. Mr. SOURWINE. You got as many as you could, and tried to get them all? Mr. DERIABIAN. You are right. Mr. SOURWINE. Well now, suppose there was a young man studying for the priesthood and they could not recruit him. What happened? Was he allowed to go ahead and complete his studies and become a priest, or did they bring some kind of pressure to bear on him? Mr. DERIABIAN. Well, if it happens like this, they will get some kind of information on him, or they will take his papers, and we will say that his course is filled up; and they will say, "We cannot take you." Mr. SOURWINE. In other words, if they could not recruit him, he never became a priest? Mr. DERIABIAN. You are right. Sometimes I would say that leaders, fanatics-they become priests-nothing to do for the government. Actually, they appointed them some kind in some small village. They are put there with KGB agent who is over him, taking care of him. Mr. SOURWINE. Do I understand you correctly as having said that it was the practice to lecture or brief the members of General Karpov's organization on antireligious activies ? Mr. DERIABIAN. Yes, you are right. Mr. SOURWINE. This was done periodically after regular intervals? Mr. DERIABIAN. I would not say regular periods. Actually, the KGB received that lecture from General Karpov maybe sometimes one, two, or three times a year. And sometimes the men of General Karpov's section went into the factory or the schools and the universities to make lectures, but there they represented themselves as members of some kind of party committee, in some kind of lay work, or as a lecturer in some part of the committee. Actually, he is a member of KGB, but he gave himself out as an instructor or lecturer from party committee. Mr. SOURWINE. Did you ever attend and listen to one of those briefings by members of Major General Karpov's organization? Mr. DERIABIAN. Yes, I did. I would say it was in 1947-48. Mr. SOURWINE. Would you tell us about it as you remember it? Mr. DERIABIAN. One was, I think in 1947. There was an increase in religious activity following the decision of the government to liberalize the government's policy for the church-reopening of the churches because at that time, right after the war and during the war, there was an upsurge of growth of religious feeling and many people went back to church and began to go to church services. At that time, well, the committee was worried about that, about this growth, and they make some instructions about how to make religious propaganda, to give permission to the people to attend churches during the war and right after the war. And we have not to forget about our religious propaganda, because we are atheists as Communists. I do not remember in particular what the name is. Most of the time the lecturer states that it was under the central committee instructions, sometimes under the order of the Ministry of MGB, and it was held to organize the operation-how to fit the religious activities inside of the community. Mr. SOURWINE. Was it clear to you at all times during this period that in spite of the open avowal of some relaxation of the repression on religion, they still regarded all religious activity as a threat to the Soviet state? Mr. DERIABIAN. Well, I will say that time when they opened the churches in 1944-45 it was clear for me that the Soviet Government was using the church to help fight the Germans, and to win the good will of the people for their own party. Mr. SOURWINE. This was a part of the program of building a spirit of nationalism which would help? Mr. DERIABIAN. A program about nationalism and part of a program of the Communist Party at that time, because, well in that time |