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Mr. BELL. Mr. Pucinski, I am sorry, sir. I do not feel competent to speak to that question. I have not seen the legislation that is proposed, and I have not studied the problem from that angle; so that any opinion I might give I think would be very premature and inadvisable.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Thank you very much, sir.

Your statement here I am sure is going to be very helpful to the committee.

Mr. BELL. I hope so.

Mr. DENT. Thank you very kindly, Mr. Bell.

I notice that you emphasized rather heavily the question of employment on merit, the built-in discriminations because of both educational backgrounds and the regional employment habits. But I note here in a telegram that I received this morning, a situation that might be the first instance of mass upgrading of a group who have heretofore, according to all testimony, been discriminated against as a mass group. This telegram refers to a strike now in progress in the city of Philadelphia. It starts out:

On the basis that all Negro workers being employed by the companywhich I will leave unnamed

in an effort to break a strike, in a plant which is one of the most mechanized and traditionally employs only those who are in jobs other than the maintenance jobs.

We might call them not only semiskilled but skilled jobs.

It seems to me that if this company can employ 1,500 colored employees to take machinists jobs or jobs relating to machine work, then the clear-cut issue of discrimination is certainly before us in its worst form, and it will be interesting to note how these fellows who heretofore have been declared not able to do these jobs can now walk in out of a cold background and take on the jobs in a highly efficient and highly mechanized employment facility.

I imagine your Friends Committee, coming from Philadelphia as your group does, might be interested in the results.

Mr. BELL. This reminds me a bit of the story that we have so often heard on the question of the usability of Negro labor in side-by-side plants in the Southeast. In the textile industry you will hear the story that they cannot employ Negro workers because they are not adequately dextrous with their hands. In the tobacco plant across the street you will find they are very anxious to have Negro workers because they are so dextrous with their hands. So that you get these contradictions.

Mr. DENT. It is an old saying that goes back further than you and I that it "depends on whose ox is being gored."

Mr. PUCINSKI. Perhaps that telegram answers at least in part the question I asked of Mr. Hill and Dr. Long and yourself, as to whether or not there is any merit in the statements made, apparently in good faith, that they cannot find qualified people to meet the nondiscriminatory standards set by State legislation.

I am rather interested myself that they can take 1,500 people in a highly skilled factory and overnight make them qualified.

This to some degree, it would appear, refutes the statement that they cannot find qualified people.

Mr. DENT. I have seen them make pretty good glassworkers and steelworkers over the years in my community.

Unless there are other matters to come before us, I would suggest Mr. Bell also get a copy of this legislation so that we can have the benefit of his observations on it.

Thank you very kindly for coming.

Your full statement will be inserted in the record.

(The prepared statement of Mr. Bell follows:)

SUMMARY OF TESTIMONY BY B. TARTT BELL, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, SOUTHEASTERN REGIONAL OFFICE, AMERICAN FRIENDS SERVICE COMMITTEE, HIGH POINT, N.C.

Mr. Chairman, my name is B. Tartt Bell. I am the executive secretary of the southeastern regional office of the American Friends Service Committee. Our office is in High Point, N.C. From this regional office a 15-person staff conducts programs in a 7-State area.

The American Friends Service Committee appreciates the invitation of your special Subcommittee on Labor to share with you the insights from our years of efforts to eliminate racial and religious discrimination in employment. The American Friends Service Committee is a Quaker organization. Founded in 1917, it has worked continuously during these 45 years to lay the foundations for a peaceful world. In many countries overseas we have operated programs of relief and rehabilitation in war-devastated areas and pilot projects of technical assistance in underdeveloped regions. For over 10 years we have sponsored unique programs in international affairs, both in the United States and abroad.

Our experience overseas and our involvement in world affairs have sharpened our awareness of the importance of eliminating racial, religious, and political discrimination here at home and elsewhere in the world. However, we have worked at this job not because of what others may think of the United States, but out of a religious concern for the spiritual health of all people. We do not believe it possible for spiritual well-being to exist where racial, religious, and political discrimination is practiced.

NATURE OF PROGRAMS IN FIELD OF EMPLOYMENT

Since 1953 we have had, among others, a program in our regional office called the employment on merit program. It has been a modest but a persistent effort to create conditions of equal employment opportunities for all citizens and to help management exercise the freedom to hire the best qualified persons for job openings without regard to race or religion. During most of this period our staff has consisted of a team of three persons. We have concentrated in North Carolina but have worked in other States. In October of 1961 we opened an employment on merit program with a two-person staff in Atlanta, Ga. The committee, through another regional office, now operates similar programs in Baton Rouge, La., and in Houston, Tex.

Basically, the American Friends Service Committee's approach in our region has consisted of two principal thrusts: (1) conferences with management at the policymaking level, (2) consultation with leaders of the minority groups. Ours has been an effort to persuade policymakers to adopt the principle of nondiscrimination. The only pressure we have used is moral suasion and the logic of hiring on merit. In cooperation with minority leaders, which of course in the Southeast means the Negro leadership, we have sought to raise in the Negro community the levels of aspiration in employment and to help initiate the necessary changes required for preparation to participate in the industrialization of the South.

DEPTH OF EXPERIENCE

Our experience since 1953 has not been limited to any particular industries but has covered a wide variety of companies in manufacturing and commerce. It includes contacts with firms in textiles, electrical appliances, department stores, aircraft, communications, furniture, insurance, clothing, tobacco, steel, and others. Our representatives have visited many executives of large indus77736 0-62-pt. 2-5

trial operations and many owners of small shops. ences have been held with employers in the Southeast. this unique experience?

Over 500 personal confer-
What have we found in

DISCRIMINATION IS THE PATTERN

First, we can attest to the existence of widespread, almost universal racial discrimination in employment. The absence of equal job opportunities is the pattern across the region. No industry is free of flagrant employment discrimination. Very few companies in the region have a record on this problem of which to boast. It is a well-established fact that the severely restricted opportunity to utilize skills and education in the South is the primary factor in the heavy out-migration of qualified Negroes during the past quarter century.

During the summer of 1958 the American Friends Service Committee conducted a survey in Greensboro, N. C., to determine trends in racial discrimination in employment. The survey was made over a period of 6 weeks by a group of mature college students under the direction of experienced university and business leaders. Interviews were completed with 402 Greensboro employers. There were seven types of businesses included in the sample. Of the 402 firms, only 53, or 13.2 percent state that they now employ or intend in the future to employ without racial discrimination. This sampling of Greensboro firms indicates clearly that equal opportunity to use one's skills, training, ability, and education in traditional American fashion is not, in fact, present even for the graduates of the city's Negro high schools and of the North Carolina Agricultural & Teaching College located in the city. It is our observation that Greensboro is, however, actually far above most southern cities in nontraditional employment openings.

Second, in addition to our firsthand encounter with widespread racial discrimination in employment we have been disturbed, though not surprised, to find the extent to which the lives of countless Negro citizens are being damaged and embittered by the lack of opportunities to utilize their abilities fully in a free society. To be restricted to menial tasks by virtue of "custom" is a particularly bitter dose for many ambitious young Negro graduates who are capable of making a much more important place in society for themselves.

One aspect of the high price of discrimination to which our attention has been especially drawn is the difficulty of motivating Negro youth to aspire to nontraditional careers. For decades the walls of discrimination in employment have been so high that superhuman reserves of faith were required of Negro youth who aspired to nontraditional positions in southern industry. We, therefore, are still caught in the vicious cycle of trying to persuade these young people to prepare for careers which they believe do not exist. Indeed, the pattern of discrimination has been so pervading that even unusually well qualified persons often feel it is useless to seek employment in nontraditional jobs. The inability of older relatives, friends, and acquaintances to find adequate employment in their home communities has been a great discouragement to Negro youth. It has increased the difficulty of parents, teachers, and counselors in guiding them to prepare for a worthwhile vocation. During the past 5 years our staff has staged a series of conferences for vocational counselors, parents, ministers, teachers, and others concerned with the plight of Negro young people who face the additional problem of racial discrimination in making decisions for their life's work. Without exception these experienced counselors say that what is most desperately needed is more examples of Negroes in local communities who are employed in nontradional jobs. Our problem is to achieve this quickly enough to halt the tragic waste of talent among our Negro youth. Their ambition has been seriously thwarted by the patterns of discrimination.

Third, in our work in the minority community one of our major findings is the fact that few qualified Negroes are seeking nontraditional employment in the South. At a meeting only last week the guidance officer of a large Negro college lamented the fact that "the best qualified graduates are the first to leave the South." What has already been said suggests why this is true. Unfortunately, the fact remains that as a result a very large number of businessmen in the South have never had an application from a Negro for employment above a janitorial job. The pattern is being perpetuated by the State employment services which continue to fill job orders with racial and religious specifications.

In June and July of 1959 the American Friends Service Committee's employment-on-merit program conducted a survey in Durham, N.C., similar to the one in Greensboro, to determine the trend of employment opportunities for Negro youth. This survey found that of 371 employers interviewed, only 85, or 22 percent of them had ever received an application from a Negro for a nontraditional job.

Fourth, one of the most important discoveries to emerge from these 8 years and 500 conferences is that very few firms have adopted policies of nondiscriminatory hiring. These are so few that they stand out as pioneers among management in the region. Some of these have done an excellent job and we deeply appreciate the moral courage they have demonstrated and the fine example they have set. In all cases their success has been the result of a firm policy decision from top management. For this there is no substitute. In many instances the adoption of a policy of employment on merit has exposed employers to the risks of unfair competition and economic reprisals of serious consequences. Nevertheless, it has been done. I hold here a leaflet entitled, "This Is What They Say," produced by the AFSC. It is a statement from five pioneer employers in North Carolina who have experienced successful desegregation. These, and other similar, definitely southern experiences, provide important precedents and a body of information on which to draw as you consider legislation in this field. We are convinced they demonstrate that employment on merit can be accomplished in the South when tackled with conviction, determination, and intelligence.

Fifth, a great deal has been written about southern attitudes and southern practices in race relations. We do not find, however, any noticeable difference between the employment policies of southern companies and of nonsouthern companies with installations in the South. With a few notable exceptions, the eastern and midwestern controlled plants are following local customs to the letter in their hiring practices.

Not long ago I had the opportunity to visit the plant manager of a national corporation at his eastern North Carolina location. With a work force of 200 persons in a semiskilled operation, he had only 2 Negroes on the payroll, 1 the day janitor and 1 the night janitor. This was in spite of the fact that the plant was in a district heavily populated with Negroes and that the plant manager had personally been responsible in two of the corporation's installations in other parts of the country for integrating minority groups into the production line and company office. Many national corporations with new plants in the South have a wealth of experience in recruiting, training, and integrating minority group members. They, however, appear unlikely to bring this experience to bear on the problem of utilizing the full manpower potential in southern communities if they have to be the first to hire Negroes in nontraditional jobs or to go this route alone in their industry.

Sixth, another finding which comes out of our many frank and confidential discussions with policymaking management, is that many leading businessmen in the region are personally prepared to admit that employment on merit is desirable. They would like to see progress made in eliminating the discrimination which they recognize as undemocratic and detrimental to the further development of the region. I cannot say that we have found this category in a majority. However, they represent a very important segment of the leadership and are in every field of endeavor. At present may policymakers of good will feel themselves "locked in" the patterns of discriminatory employment. They feel there are problems enough in the competitive world of business and that they are not in position to initiate reforms. However, a theme which runs through our interviews is "I'd be glad to go along if we all would employ on merit."

We have encountered few employers whose unfair employment policies are attributed to their own personal prejudices against minority group members. Usually, the policy is said to be unnecessary to accommodate the prejudices of customers or employees. We find that these fears are often without foundation in fact. In a major North Carolina city, we asked approximately 50 women employees in the offices of a variety of companies the question, "Would you personally be willing to accept a Negro as a fellow worker in your department?" With 2 exceptions out of 50, the answer was "Yes." In a number of cases these young women were employed by companies where we had been told employment on merit wouldn't work because the employees "aren't ready for it." Finally, I should like to report that we have, in spite of strenuous efforts, been quite unsuccessful in negotiating the simultaneous adoption of employment on

merit by a group of firms in an industry. For example, we have tried to persuade several department stores to act in concert in declaring a policy of fair employment. Our hope was that they might thus protect themselves against unfair competition from a major competitor who continued to curry to local prejudices, Apparently, however, independent policymaking is too treasured a tradition to make room for much hope that joint voluntary action is the answer on the local level.

CONCLUSIONS

What conclusions can be drawn from our experience in the Southeast? I think there are several important ones.

First, we are convinced that, though quite valuable, the efforts of voluntary agencies and a few scattered employers are quite inadequate to solve the problem of achieving equal employment opportunities. There are important contributions to be made by the private human relations agencies, and we shall continue to work in this field. But what is required now is appropriate legislation to outlaw racial and religious discrimination in employment. I believe it could be so designed and implemented as to set the conditions for fair competition. It has been said that you can't legislate morals. Perhaps not, but legislation can and does effectively influence the behavior patterns of American citizens. We believe it can successfully do so in the field of employment, in the South and elsewhere. State legislation has done an effective job in other regions of the country.

We conclude from our employer interviews that many employers in the region would welcome legislation which prohibits unfair employment practices based on race and religion. They need a bold public statement of policy, a standard of behavior which the Nation expects and to which they can rally.

I would grant that it will not be easy in the near future to implement fair employment legislation in the South. However, the reservoir of intelligence and of good will, in both the Caucasian and Negro communities, is still deep and should be counted on by the Nation.

A Federal law prohibiting racial discrimination in employment would be a powerful incentive to countless Negroes to begin knocking on the front doors of southern industry and commerce. They could do so in the expectation of receiving due consideration of what they have to offer in preparation and ability to prospective employers.

Mr. Chairman, there is one final point I would like to make. This period of rapid industrial growth in the South is a particularly important time to consider how to break out of the old customary patterns of discrimination and to think of creating equal employment opportunities. I believe there is an urgency in securing adequate legislation now if we are to insure a fair share of job opportunities for Negro citizens in the new South. I believe it would have enormously beneficial results for the South and especially for the improvement of relations between the races. Nothing does as much to reduce tensions as the removal of the basic injustice out of which they arise.

We are for reducing the sources of tension and we believe fair employment legislation is an essential step in the right direction.

Mr. DENT. Before adjourning, I want to announce that tomorrow morning the hearings will start at 9:30, and we have been able to get this room. So for the balance of the week, the hearings will be held in this particular room.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Mr. Chairman, before you adjourn, the chairman. of our subcommittee, Mr. Roosevelt, requested earlier that this pamphlet be included in the record, and I so move.

Mr. DENT. Without objection, it is so ordered. (The pamphlet referred to follows:)

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