ARLINGTON HEIGHTS The newest of the downstate offices has no Negro employees. The area from which the employees are recruited appear to make the hiring of Negroes unlikely. THE REMAINING LOOP OFFICES The union has two accounting locals remaining in the Chicago Loop. One is the comptrollers local comprising what is known as the headquarters group. The local consists of about 100 members working in many small offices for the various executive branches of the accounting department. A check by the union failed to disclose any Negro employees in this local. The remaining union local is disbursements accounting located at 165 North Canal Street with about 400 eligible employees. This is the last accounting office currently hiring new Negro employees. Many of the Negroes are those transferred into this office when the successive moves to outlying offices commenced in 1952. However, some are Negroes hired more recently to work specifically in this office. Of 14 union stewards in this local, 3 are Negro. The company informed the union in October 1960, that the disbursements office would ultimately be decentralized into the outlying offices in a few years. At that date it appears that only white employees will be hired in the accounting department if present practice continues. HIRING RESPONSIBILITY The union in its recent survey endeavored to find out who was responsible for this seeming decrease in Negro employment. The accounting department in the outlying offices have employment personnel reporting and responsible to the accounting department. These accounting employment people appear to recruit and refer prospective employees to the downtown employment office. In a meeting with management Monday, April 3, at Brainerd accounting office the union was told that accounting is responsible for referral and recruiting only and not for actual hiring. The actual hiring, the union was informed, is done downtown by the general personnel department outside the bargaining authority of the union. The place of actual hiring is important because the union has been informed that 60 percent of the downtown applicants are Negro. It must be remembered that 98 percent of those hired are for entrance jobs requiring only a high school diploma. It must be further remembered the district the present force resides in compasses large Negro living areas. It is therefore impossible that of 159 clerks hired at Marquette, 145 at Brainerd, and 134 at Northcenter all could be white unless a perfect understanding was reached between the recruiting personnel in the outlying offices and the downtown hiring office. The union survey under question No. 4 shows the following results: 4. Was your first hiring interview at Illinois Bell Telephone Co. at (check one): (a) Your present office address? (b) Downtown at 208 or 309 West Washington Street? The survey counting only those hired after the respective office was moved outside the Chicago Loop shows as follows: (a) 18, (b) 93, (c) 2, total 113. This appears to show that 82 percent of the applicants were hired downtown and all hired were white while 60 percent of the applicants applying for work downtown were Negro and not one was hired for a job requiring only a high school diploma. APPENDIX H PARTIAL TEXT-HOUSING DISCRIMINATION HEARINGS, CALIFORNIA STATE ASSEMBLY TESTIMONY OF H. JACKSON PONTIUS, CALIFORNIA REAL ESTATE ASSOCIATION ASSEMBLY INTERIM COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL EFFICIENCY AND ECONOMY HEARING IN LOS ANGELES, SEPTEMBER 28-29, 1961 Assemblyman LESTER A. MCMILLAN (chairman). Mr. Pontius, you are in the Would you care to take the stand and make a statement? In behalf of the association you represent? room. H. JACKSON PONTIUS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Jack Pontius. I am the executive vice president of the California Real Estate Association. I feel that in view of the present testimony, and I did not come here prepared to make any written testimony or provide something to the committee, but I think that to enlighten the committee on the use of the term "realtor,” because of your further discussions that will take place today and tomorrow, I should mention its use, and be prepared, and I am prepared, to answer any questions which you may have with regard to its use as a term, because I know you gentlemen are here for the purpose of hearing of the problem that some people have complained about and much of it surrounds the use of the term "realtor." This particular term is copyrighted by the National Association of Real Estate Boards-NAREB, as we refer to the national association. It therefore owns the copyright which has been granted by the U.S. Government. Each local real estate board who applies and becomes a member of the national association, through contract with the national association, is responsible for the use and the control of the term "realtor" in its respective community. The State law says that anyone who uses the term without authority is subject to the revocation of their license, under section 10177E. This is similar to other sections in other laws governing the use of terms used by licensees. The California Real Estate Association is a member of the national association by virtue of what we call a three-way agreement. To belong to. and use the term "realtor," an individual must belong to a local real estate board, the State association, and the national association. Through our agree ment with the national association we cannot accept members who are not members of NAREB and cannot accept members who do not belong to our state association. Each local board, of which we have 169 in the State of California is autonomous within its own right. The only control which the national association has of a local board, and I am referring to a real estate board as a nonprofit organization, some of them incorporated under the laws of the State of California, others just associations, nonincorporated. Each board is autonomous in its own right and we can only reprimand that board in the event that the board establishes what is known as an inequitable limitation upon its membership as a policy, or in its bylaws. And that we attempt to watch very closely. The national association can do the same thing. We have no control upon the members. The California Real Estate Association, for example, accepts the membership as submitted to it in the local boards. We have no right to turn them down if the local board accepts them. I know of no local real estate board in the State of California that has a policy of selecting or not selecting their members because of race, color, creed, religion, or anything else. In fact, we've never made a survey of this situation in the State of California because we didn't feel it is one that should concern us. We feel that this is a matter that is taking care of itself very nicely. We have members from all walks of life, members of our State association and the national association. We have had a Negro past president of a local board; we have had Chinese past presidents: we've had Japanese; we've had Spanish, Mexican, and presently I know of one local board that has a Negro secretary. Now, it seems to me that the communities that are selecting these people have not been discriminatory in their selections. The people have contributed well. I didn't mean to take so much time in getting into the association structure. I wanted to stick more closely in relation to the use of the term "realtor." Are there any questions which you may have with regard to the use? Mr. MCMILLAN. Mr. Levering? Assemblyman LEVERING. I wonder if I understood you correctly, Mr. Pontius. Let me ask you this question. Are there members of the Negro race that are members of the Los Angeles Realty Board and of the California State Realty Association? The other gentleman said not, a moment ago. Mr. PONTIUS. I know of no colored members who are members of the Los Angeles Real Estate Board. We have 35,000 members and I don't know them all. We have colored members. There are none that I know of in the Los Angeles area. We have some in Pasadena, we have some in the San Diego area. San Francisco, Sacramento, Antelope Valley, numerous places throughout the State, and no one has ever particularly-there are many that I don't know about, because I have never run onto them. These people are just people that I have personally met in my travels throughout the State. Mr. LEVERING. Well, then your answer would be this that if there are no members from Los Angeles, Negroes, who are members of the State association, that would come within the framework of the bylaws of the Los Angeles Board. Isn't that right? Mr. PONTIUS. Yes. However, I can say this, Mr. Levering, that the bylaws of the Los Angeles Real Estate Board say nothing, and I know of no policy with the Los Angeles Real Estate Board with reference to their attitude on this thing. Mr. LEVERING. Well, it would come within the scope of their action, then. Mr. PONTIUS. You are correct. The individual members of the membership committee, not the board of directors. Mr. LEVERING. All right. Whoever is the body that does the accepting or rejecting. Mr. PONTIUS. That is correct. Right. Mr. LEVERING. Thank you, sir. Mr. MCMILLAN. Mr. Elliott. Assemblyman ELLIOTT. Mr. Pontius, about how many members are there in the Los Angeles Realty Board? Mr. PONTIUS. The Los Angeles Real Estate Board has approximately 1,800 members, I believe in excess of 1,800. Mr. ELLIOTT. 1,800 members. And you say of those 1,800 members there are no members of the Negro race? Mr. PONTIUS. Not that I know of. That is correct. Mr. ELLIOTT. And about how many brokers would you say in Los Angeles County are, a very substantial number who are persons of the Negro race? Mr. PONTIUS. Well, Mr. Elliott, I would say that the State division of real estate estimates that there are somewhere between 65 and 70 percent of all the licensees in the State of California south of Santa Barbara. Perhaps that comes close enough to answering your question. I would like to mention this, however, that of all the licensees, of which there are many in Los Angeles, there are many people who have the license in their pocket and are not directly involved in real estate, and I am sure that if a matter of that kind were to come up, the board would have that in mind, but those people do not usually apply for membership. Mr. ELLIOTT. Doesn't it appear to be pretty evident that there is a policy of excluding members of the Negro race when there are apparently a very substantial number in Los Angeles County who are eligible and qualified to become members and who are participating licensees and out of 1,800 members there isn't one single member of the Negro race? Mr. PONTIUs. Well, Mr. Elliott, I don't know how many Negro members may have applied to the Los Angeles Real Estate Board. I know that there have been many, many members who have applied to the Los Angeles Realty Board and other boards who have been turned down. I don't know their reasons. Furthermore, I think we have to keep in mind that when people are turned down, regardless of where the membership committee might exist, whether it is in Los Angeles or San Francisco, it isn't the board of directors; it isn't the board in its entirety that may or may not vote for a member; it might be several individuals, and how are you going to determine who those individuals are when it's in the individual's mind? And this is the thing that concerns me about legislation of this type. I don't know how you can legislate to pick a man's brains, and know the truth. Mr. ELLIOTT. Don't you think that it is poor policy, or do you think it is poor policy on the part of the Los Angeles Board, not to show some leadership in the world in which we live, to encourage qualified Negro licensees to apply and become members of their group. Mr. PONTIUS. Mr. Elliott, the Los Angeles Real Estate Board has been quite instrumental, and quite active, in working with the city of Los Angeles in some of the housing problems that affected this very situation. And I would say in regard they have been leaders in their community. One of the principal policies of the Los Angeles Real Estate Board has been to work with the city and with the problems of the city. Now, I don't know to what extent-I understood that a group was to have sat down with the Los Angeles Board and discuss this matter. They proposed to do it in the next few weeks. I am not fully aware of that program, but I heard some comments. Mr. ELLIOTT. You mean you are going to discuss this matter of excluding persons of the Negro race? Mr. PONTIUS. I don't know if it was exclusion or just what it was, but they said that there is some group-I don't know whether they are the members of the Consolidated Realty Board or who they are. Mr. ELLIOTT. Thank you. Mr. MOMILLAN. Mr. Knox. Mr. Knox. Mr. Pontius, as I understand it, the State law protects the use of the word "realtor," and the only persons that can use the word "realtor" are the members of these private associations. Is that right? Mr. PONTIUS. That is correct. Mr. Knox. So that although a person might be licensed under the State, licensed as this gentleman that just spoke to us was, a real estate licensee, he can't use the term "realtor," and that has the protection of the State law. Why should that be? Mr. PONTIUS. Well, you know the State law also covers the Negro organizations. There is an organization known as Realtists-R-E-A-L-T-I-S-T-which was formed at the national level by-and their national emblem is the same as ours. Ours is National Association of Real Estate Boards known as NAROB, and theirs is National Association of Real Estate Brokers, also identical to NAROB. This group was organized back in the late 1940's, I believe, and in cooperation they called upon the then executive vice president of the National Association of Real Estate Boards to assist them, and our national association helped organize that particular group. The term "realtist" is also protected under the State law of California. In the event anyone should attempt to use that without authority, if they should use the law to uphold their term, they have that equal right. Mr. KNOX. But as far as you know the two organiaztions are segregated, then, one is, you indicated, the Negro association and the other Mr. PONTIUS. No, there are white members who are realtists, I mean Caucasian members, and there are Negro members who are members of our national association of real estate boards, and, the Californian Real Estate Assocation and some of our local boards. Mr. KNOX. So you didn't mean your first statement that the Negro real estate people had organized. You didn't mean to say that. Mr. PONTIUS. Pardon? Mr. KNOX. You didn't mean to say that the Negro members were organized. That's what you said originally when you described the realtists. Mr. PONTIUS. Oh, yes. They-well, they were the ones that started it as I understand it. Mr. KNOX. Thank you. Mr. MCMILLAN. Any further questions? Mr. Williamson. Mr. WILLIAMSON. Mr. Pontius, do I understand that your organization does not intend to make any kind of statement at these hearings on this subject? Mr. PONTIUS. Well, I had nothing on the agenda. I was informed that you were having a meeting. We have a State convention this is scheduled to take place Monday with, we hope, 5,000 people here, and some 500 individuals on the program, and believe me, we've been snowed under with that. As far as a statement is concerned, I talked to Mr. Miller here a moment ago, and I will be here tomorrow and perhaps be prepared to make a statement then. I said when I arrived here that I was not prepared to make a statement now. Mr. WILLIAMSON. Are there going to be additional hearings, Mr. Chairman? Mr. MCMILLAN. Well, we're meeting tomorrow and we will try to afford Mr. Pontius an opportunity to make his statement tomorrow. Mr. WILLIAMSON. I notice on the agenda that there are a number of representatives to speak for the Consolidated Realty Board. Are they a member of your organization? Mr. PONTIUS. No. And I'm glad you brought that up, Mr. Williamson. I neglected to cover that particular item in the structure of our relaionship with the national association. The national association, in granting the use of the term "realtor" sets up a jurisdictional area, and according to the national association, there can only be one local board in each community or in each city. Of course the first one that is granted that jurisdiction holds that jurisdiction for as long as they wish. It's difficult-I say it is difficult-it can be done, but it is very difficult to take away from a local board any jurisdiction that has previously been granted to them. We have had some occasions in the Los Angeles metropolitan area where a number of boards wanted to organize, but, and in fact in Los Angeles County we have approximately 40 real estate boards now. Each of these boards has a separate jurisdictional area which is granted to them by the national association. That means that the Consolidated Real Estate Board which was organized after the organization of the Los Angeles Realty Board, if they were to petition for an area within Los Angeles, it wouldn't be available to them because Los Angeles has already been granted that territory. Now, I understand that in 1953 when Charles Shattuck, whom some of you know here in Los Angeles, the president of the National Association of Real Estate Boards, that members of the consolidated board spoke to Mr. Shattuck about this problem, and he said that if they would sit down with him he would be glad to see, if they would apply, he would be glad to see what he could do about seeing that they had a jurisdictional area to cover the area of the Consolidated Realty Board which would permit them to become a member of the National Assocation and the California Real Estate Association. I can't give you all the details on that, but from what I have been able to learn, there was no application submitted. Mr. WILLIAMSON. Well, the main thing I wanted to clear up; I wanted to establish that these people will not be speaking for you, nor would_their remarks be interpreted as reflecting the position of the California Real Estate Association. Mr. PONTIUS. There are a few real estate boards who are not members of the national or the State associations. Many of them are organized for the benefit of the individuals in the area because their business is in a specific vicinity. It gives them an opportunity to have meetings in their own community and many of those same people belong to other nearby real estate boards and by virtue of that are members of our State association. Mr. WILLIAMSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to observe that, for Mr. Pontius' benefit, that it would seem very strange to many people, it seems to me, that an organization such as yours who express such definite opinions on some of the legislation that we are considering and who are so active at Sacramento, did not take advantage of this opportunity to put the views of your organization on record so that the committee would have the benefit of it. Mr. PONTIUS. I'm sure you'll hear further from us, Mr. Williamson, because I said I wasn't prepared to say anything this morning. In fact, I had difficulty even arriving here this morning. Mr. MCMILLAN. Mr. Pontius, I want to clear up some points, now. You were notified of this meeting, and you were invited to attend and submit any statement that you wished. Mr. PONTIUS. Yes, yes, indeed. Mr. MCMILLAN. Well, I just wanted to get that clear for the record. Mr. PONTIUS. Yes, we received a notice and I also received a telephone call from your secretary. But I was attempting to express the problems we have with a lot of last-minute details on this. Mr. MCMILLAN. All right. Thank you, Mr. Pontius. Mr. PONTIUS. Thank you. Mr. MCMILLAN. Before we hear anyone well, all right, Mr. Shaw. Mr. LESLIE SHAW (president, Family Savings & Loan Association). First of all, sir, I am not a member of the consolidated realty board. SecondMr. MCMILLAN. What is the consolidated realty board? Mr. SHAW. The consolidated realty board is a board composed of that was organized and 90 percent of the membership, 98 percent of their membership, probably, is all Negro. The reason they were organized is because they were refused entry to the Los Angeles Realty Board some years ago. As far as their-Mr. Pontius said there are some Negroes in the area who are members of their board. There is one to my knowledge in Pasadena. I don't know of any in San Diego. The basic problem here is this-and I have been told this by a realtor, I am not certain of this-but the most important aspect of this problem is, and the reason I understand that they do not wish to permit Negroes to become members of the board, is because of their multiple listing system. This would afford any Negro broker the opportunity to sell housing on an open occupancy basis, because they would have the information as to where and how many houses there are available for sale. This, first of all, in my opinion, curtails a real estate broker in good standing from making an adequate living. It also, in my present business, curtails my efforts because of the lack of information as to sales, to do the type of job that should be done as a lender in this community. I am still the custodian of funds for other people and it is incumbent upon me to do the best job that I can as far as ascertaining values and this 77736-62-pt. 2 -28 |