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which consist of heterogeneous pictures by local artists, and those presented by admiring friends and local worthies in most of the provincial towns in this country. Nor will it be realised by having even good pictures side by side, without any historical or artistic idea to link them together, as in the Academy., Nor will it be through any shows such as those of the so-called Science and Art Department at South Kensington. It can, in my belief, only be brought about by a collection of the highest and noblest forms (casts and good copies of photos) arranged historically. From what I know of the casts in Rome, Naples, and Berlin, I do not believe that such a collection need cost more than, say, £3,000. £1,000 would give us casts of the very best examples of sculpture, and Berlin is the best place to spend it in. I am merely writing here of art, not of science. Your discussion is doing great service in arousing the public."

Mr. GEORGE MILNER said most of them would accede to almost all that Mr. Horsfall said in the introductory part of his paper. If there was anything there to which objection might be taken, it was the passage referring to the teaching power of art. It was a question whether art should concern itself with teaching at all, and he imagined this depended very much upon what they meant by teaching. He thought Mr. Horsfall frequently used the word in a sense which meant elevating, or raising those to whom any work of art presented itself, and he thought that none of them could doubt that art was exercising its proper function when teaching in that sense. The first requisite in a picture was that it should please, for if it did not please it was not art at all. Passing on to the more practical part of the paper, he thought most of them would object to taking "part or whole of a welllighted warehouse" for this gallery, as suggested by Mr. Horsfall. He (Mr. Milner) thought they could not consent to stop short of a building specially adapted to the purpose in view. The next point to which he thought objection might be taken, was the idea of having copies of pictures. It was always a very doubtful thing to have copies, and he was of opinion that this part of the scheme should be abandoned, and the museum only contain original pictures, or the best autotypes of pictures and casts. Mr. Horsfall next told them if art was to reach the people at all, it must have some story to tell, and then in beautiful and appro priate language he told them that no story was so well known or could be so well illustrated as the life of Christ. Here he must differ from Mr. Horsfall, for at any rate he thought it would hardly be desirable to illustrate the life of Christ by antique pictures. He did not think such pictures commended themselves to modern ideas, or would be of the slightest use in illustrating that story; they were only valuable to us as productions of art. Besides, that story never could be better told than in the mar

vellous words in which it was first made known. But he imagined it would be possible to get some modern painter to illustrate the story in a way that would commend it to the people of the present age, and if any man in England could do that work it was their fellow-member, Mr. F. J. Shields. Anyone who saw his fine drawings for the stained windows in Mr. Houldsworth's chapel, recently on view at Messrs. Grundy and Smith's, must have been astonished at the masculine power and strength exhibited in them, and for which his most intimate friends were not prepared. Another reason why Mr. Shields was so fitted to undertake a work of the kind suggested by Mr. Horsfall was that he thoroughly believed the story. Whether, as suggested, a description should be placed underneath each picture, would depend how this was done. An art gallery should not be too didactic. Any description of the pictures should be as brief as possible. Then, again, he did not approve of confining with the art gallery the idea of a scientific museum, in which geology, botany, and other sciences were to be taught by means of the pictures. Indeed there were not half a dozen men in the world who have painted pictures so true to nature that they would answer this purpose. He could not approve either of chromolithographs forming part of such a collection. The idea of representing leaves, trees, and animals was, however, exceedingly admirable, and he believed that such pictures, if large ones, would be very interesting to people generally. With regard to opening the gallery on Sundays, he must say that he was not in favour of opening places of amusement on Sundays, for he believed that what people want on that day is quiet and rest, calm rather than exciting recreation. But as regards this particular scheme, he was distinctly in favour of Sunday opening. He considered Mr. Horsfall had put the question of Sunday opening in a better and more convincing way than ever it was put before, and he confessed himself convinced by Mr. Horsfall's reasoning. Mr. Horsfall said it might be asked why the municipality should not undertake such a work as that he was proposing, and his (Mr. Milner's) answer was that the Corporation would probably have its own art gallery some day; but as the president had observed that was quite a different thing from the scheme now under consideration. The art gallery of the Corporation would be a place to which people would go and come away again without being subjected to any of those influences contemplated in Mr. Horsfall's scheme. Some people doubted the practicability of this scheme, but he believed it was distinctly practical. Only get the building and all the rest would follow; indeed he knew that pictures would come. One essential necessity of the scheme was that whoever was at the head of such an institution should have the right to reject pictures offered to it without being subjected to a charge of slighting or

offending the donors. One of the most melancholy features about art galleries, as a rule, was that they were made the receptacles of rubbishy pictures, given by persons of fatuous tastes. The central idea of Mr. Horsfall's scheme was that "the knowledge of those who have it shall be used for the good of those who have it not." And also he proposed to combine music with art, a feature which distinguished it from all other schemes yet submitted, and, if carried out, the institution would be a most valuable agent in elevating the people. He had had some experience of work of this kind, having during the last ten or twelve years helped to get together some really fine works of art for exhibition in one of the dingiest and most unpromising parts of the city. They had always combined music and literature with those exhibitions, and he had seen the refining influence which these agencies had had on persons of the most ignorant and most uncultivated character. He apprehended, then, that what was required was an institution with which should be associated an art gallery, an academy of music, and a school of letters, where people of the educated classes might go and talk to working men of literature, music, and art, in an unpretentious but exceedingly profitable manner. It must not be a place to which people went simply to observe, but where they would be met by the more intelligent of their race, who were willing to communicate their knowledge to others.

Mr. WALTER TOMLINSON said that, as an artist, he believed the statement of Mr. Horsfall in his pamphlet that " on the life of the people in England painting and sculpture have absolutely no effect was almost absolutely true, and any sincere endeavour to discover and point out a remedy for this in however slight a degree ought to command all the sympathy and assistance which could be given, especially from artists. It was very doubtful whether in the present day a clever painter of pictures was of as much use to his fellows as a clever book illustrator, a pattern designer, or even the man who invented a beautiful form for a cheap jug. Was there not a slight consciousness of this, underlying the derision with which the two or three unfortunate words of Mr. Horsfall, "a well-lighted warehouse," had been met? The word warehouse usually implied some connection with usefulness, and was there not something exquisitely ludicrous in the association of painting with utility in any way at the present time? Perhaps, however, Mr. Horsfall would not object to calling his warehouse a gallery, when he had obtained it, out of deference to our tender susceptibilities. He thought Mr. Horsfall's notion of a simple, inexpensive building, as well lighted as they pleased, was an excellent one; indeed, he thought infinitely more good would be likely to result from the establishing of three or four small places of the kind in different quarters of the city than from some large, overgrown, wearisome picture gallery in the centre.

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Now as to artists and their objections. The head and front of Mr. Horsfall's offending would seem to lie (after the "well-lighted warehouse") in the passage where he expresses a desire to see pictures so painted as to become vehicles of instruction in geology, botany, and so forth. To this it was objected that "the business of the artist is not to teach science, but to direct the attention of men to what is beautiful in nature." Was it absolutely necessary then to keep the two things dissevered? He presumed Mr. Horsfall did not intend the artist should deliver lectures, or write books on the botany, geology, or mineralogy of his pictures; indeed, his own words wereLet us have pictures painted, then we will try to make each such picture teach all that it can teach." All that he wished was that the artist should lovingly and faithfully reproduce the natural scenes before him, clothing them with such beauties of sunlight or storm as might seem fitting. The artist's work would then become exquisite music to which another man might write the words. Again it was said the mere scientific correctness of a picture was an impertinence if insisted upon as an artistic excellence. Suppose instead of its being an impertinence, we insisted upon it as a necessity. How many wry-necked saints, dislocated apostles, grey, brown, or black smudges doing duty for trees, and pudding-headed rocks should we be spared? Was there any intelligible reason why in a landscape a tree should be neither oak, elm, or beech, but a nondescript bunch of greens? Or why the soil and the rock should not be the particular soil and rock upon and near which such trees always grow? Passing on to the question of copies, he was inclined to think Mr. Horsfall was in the right about them. Fairly good copies of most subjects could be procured at the price named by him. But it was true, as Mr. Partington observed, that in order to get the best possible copies we should employ a man as clever as the original artist; but failing this we could get fairly good copies by moderate men at moderate prices, and we must remember that when we cannot get sunlight we must put up with that of the moon. Many of the finest works derive little or no aid from their colouring, and in such cases good engravings would form no mean auxiliaries in the educational work.

Mr. JOHN EVANS said he could not regard the project as practicable. The influence of art upon the life of the ancient Greek and medieval Italian was not permanent. It was not found, for instance, in the modern Greek. The introduction of utilitarian teaching into art was not desirable.

Mr. W. H. J. TRAICE referred to the probabilities of Government aid and of municipal support, and also to the question of the appropriation of the surplus of the Exhibition of 1851. He said that at present the amount available in Manchester under the

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provisions of the Libraries and Museums Act was all absorbed by the free libraries. In Liverpool, however, they had a local act which enabled the Council of that town to levy a special penny rate for the maintenance of the museum and art gallery. It produced about £12,000 a year. Such a special local act might be obtained for Manchester. There has been no claim made so far for a share in the annual parliamentary grant for the promotion of science and art, of which so large a sum is absorbed by South Kensington. Of the £234,692 expended by the authorities at South Kensington about £130,000 is devoted to the promotion of scientific and artistic instruction throughout the United Kingdom, and of this sum Manchester earns no inconsiderable share. The annual cost of examples of art bought for the museum is about £10,000, and in that Manchester might claim to participate. The Edinburgh museum received last year £10,211, and Ireland for several institutions (scientific and artistic) 15,122, which sums are independent of the South Kensington grant though brought into the same account. Nearly all these galleries and museums make a small charge on certain days of the week. This at South Kensington yielded £2,336 last year, and at the Edinburgh Museum £472. Again, the Commissioners of the Exhibition of 1851, hold a very large unappropriated surplus and property, avowedly for the promotion of science and the arts, and said to represent about £500,000. This ought to be distributed, and the large sum contributed by Manchester to the original subscription entitled the city to a very large share of the profit gained.

The Rev. R. H. GIBSON said people might infer from some of the remarks which had been made that this was such a visionary scheme that it was not practicable, but he would remind them that such institutions were actually in existence in Nantes, Christiana, and Dresden, and were doing a great amount of good amongst the people.

Mr. JOHN MORTIMER said it appeared to him that a solution of the problem might be found if the promoters of the new School of Art, towards which £15,000 had been promised, could be induced to incorporate with that institution some scheme of the sort outlined by Mr. Horsfall.

Mr. T. C. HORSFALL answered some of the objections to his proposals, and referred to the present wretched condition of towns in England, the want of a common life, and the absence of a noble motive in the life of the middle classes. Whilst much good work was being done by various associations working in isolation, they' would have greater power of usefulness if they joined in one general society, in which they might hope to include ultimately every educated person in the community. This would be an effort to make Manchester life purer and better than it was. The more

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