REVISED RECORD

OF THE

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION

OF THE

STATE OF NEW YORK.

MAY 8, 1894, TO SEPTEMBER 29, 1894.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

Thursday Afternoon, August 23, 1894.

The Constitutional Convention of the State of New York met, pursuant to recess, in the Assembly Chamber, in the Capitol, at Albany, N. Y., Thursday, August 23, 1894, at three o'clock P. M. Vice-President Alvord called the Convention to order.

Mr. Wiggins - Mr. President, I desire to be excused from attendance on Saturday next.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr Wiggins to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. McClure- I find that since the matter of the forest preservation report was set down for Saturday morning that several gentlemen, including two or three members of the committee, will be absent on that day. I, therefore, desire to have the time changed, and Monday evening fixed for that report as a special order.

The request of Mr. McClure was concurred in.

Mr. Kinkel Mr. Kurth has been called away suddenly, and desires me to ask the Convention to excuse him from attendance the balance of the day and to-morrow morning.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Kurth to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. M. E. Lewis - I desire to be excused for Saturday.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Lewis to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. Kellogg I ask to be excused for Friday and Saturday of this week, in consequence of sickness in my family.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Kellogg to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused. Mr. Barrow I ask an excuse for Mr. Hawley, who is absent from the Convention by reason of illness, until he recovers.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Hawley to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. Holls-I wish to offer a report from the Committee on Education. It is quite lengthy, and I move that it be not read, but that it be printed and placed upon the files of members.

It was so ordered.

-

Mr. Bush I ask leave of absence for Saturday, on account of other engagements as member of a committee.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Bush to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. Root I move that one thousand extra copies of the report of the Committee on Education be printed for use and distribution by members of the Convention.

The President pro tempore put the question on the motion of Mr. Root, and it was determined in the affirmative.

Mr. Veeder I ask to be excused for the Saturday afternoon session.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Veeder to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. Carter - I ask to be excused from attendance at the session of Saturday next.

The President pro tempore put the question of Mr. Carter to be excused, and he was so excused.

Mr. Putnam ing's session.

- I ask to be excused from attendance at this even

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Putnam to be excused from attendance, and he was so excused.

Mr. Chipp- I ask to be excused from attendance on Saturday afternoon.

The President pro tempore put the question on the request of Mr. Chipp to be excused from attendance, and the request was refused.

The President pro tempore.-The chairman of the committee will please resume his seat.

The Convention went into Committee of the Whole, with Mr. Acker in the chair.

The Chairman - The Convention is still in Committee of the Whole on general order No. 45 (O., I. No. 383, P. No. 422), and is considering section 20.

Mr. Spencer

Will amendments be in order at this time?

The Chairman - Mr. Hirschberg has an amendment pending which will be voted on first. The Secretary will read the amendment.

The Secretary Mr. Hirschberg moves to amend by inserting in line 19 of page 14, after the words "one hundred," the words " and twenty," so that it will read, "in a county having a population exceeding one hundred and twenty thousand.”

Mr. Abbott Mr. Chairman, I agree with the proposition of the gentleman from Orange, but upon different grounds from those stated by him. He figures that the county of St. Lawrence will have a population exceeding one hundred thousand within sixty years. I expect that our electric city of Waddington will have a large population, exceeding one hundred thousand, in two or three months. For that reason, I support the amendment.

I

Mr. Root Before the recess I had suggested another form of expression to accomplish the same result which the gentleman from Orange (Mr. Hirschberg) wished to accomplish. He has satisfied me that his form is the better, and I withdraw the suggestion which I made. The committee, in reporting this provision in the form in which they have, attempted to reconcile many different opinions, arguments and wishes, and they thought that they had reached the best and safest middle and conservative course. have heard no suggestion which indicates that the figures which the gentleman from Orange mentions (that is, one hundred and twenty thousand) will not accomplish the desired result just as well as one hundred thousand, and if no gentleman from any of the counties of the State where they have county judges has any objection to make to it, I am sure I have not, and I have not heard that any of the other members of the Judiciary Committee have, and I, therefore, see no reason why this amendment should not be adopted.

The Chairman put the question on the amendment moved by Mr. Hirschberg, and it was determined in the affirmative.

Mr. Spencer - Mr. Chairman, I propose to amend by adding to line 3, on the top of page 15, as follows: "That this provision shall not apply to the county judge and surrogate of the county

of Hamilton." With your permission, I will make a statement why I propose this amendment.

Mr. Veeder-Is a motion to strike out now in order?

The Chairman-After this amendment is acted on it will be. Mr. Veeder I move to strike out lines 1, 2 and 3 of page 15. The Chairman I think that has been voted upon once, and voted down.

Mr. Veeder

Then I move to reconsider it.

The Chairman-Wait until this amendment of Mr. Spencer's is disposed of. The Secretary will read Mr. Spencer's amendment.

The Secretary- After the word, "court," in line 2, of page 15, insert the words "or except in the county of Hamilton, to the office of," so that it will read:

"No one shall be eligible to the office of judge of the Court of Appeals, justice of the Supreme Court, or, except in the county of Hamilton, to the office of county judge or surrogate, who is not an attorney and counselor of this State."

Mr. Spencer-I will say, Mr. Chairman, that, as I understand it, there is no admitted lawyer resident of the county of Hamilton. It is possible that some person there has been admitted, or was admitted a great many years ago, but is not in a position, or of such character, that the people of that county would elect him ta any office of this character. I would state for the information of the House that there are but two counties in the State with a greater area of territory than the county of Hamilton. It contains 1,740 square miles, separated by large tracts of wild forest land owned by the State; and scattered over that wide area of land there are only 5,216 people. The total valuation of the personal property of the county is $6,950. All the litigation as to all matters that would require the intervention of a court, as to real estate in that county is, by present provisions of the law, disposed of in the county of Fulton. So that this Convention can readily see that the law business of that county is very small indeed, and that there is no call for any lawyer to live in that county. I have heard that no man who is competent to pass an examination and be admitted to practice as a lawyer, under the rules as they now exist, could be hired or induced by any salary which is paid in that county to reside within that county or to become a citizen of it. I have examined the records of the criminal courts of that county, and I find that last year but one person was convicted, and that upon his own confession. The present county judge has never been a lawyer. He

was county clerk for many years, and he fills the office of judge acceptably. I think that this amendment ought to be accepted by the committee.

If

Mr. Dickey-I desire to speak upon this proposed amendment. I am constrained, Mr. Chairman, to oppose this amendment. a layman is good enough judge or surrogate for Hamilton county, he is good enough for surrogate or county judge of another county. I object to this special legislation. If they have no lawyers up in Hamilton county, as soon as it goes out from this Convention that they have none, they will flock to it from other counties where they have an over abundance, and the woods will be full of them; so that they will have plenty of candidates. It looks bad to me to put into the Constitution a special provision excepting one county. I think, as I said before, when I moved to strike out these entire three lines, that the whole people ought to be eligible to those offices everybody alike. But unless that is done as to all counties of the State, I do not want one to be privileged above the others, and, therefore, I shall vote against the amendment.

Mr. McClure-I hope that the suggestion made by the gentleman from Orange will not be followed by an inroad into the woods of Hamilton by the lawyers of the State. I am interested in preserving the forests. The trouble has been that the forests have been gradually stolen from the people by people who went in there. I don't want this invitation to go broadcast to the lawyers. Mr. Veeder Following up the line indicated by Mr. McClure's argument, I move to strike out the word "not," in line 3.

The Chairman - The motion is not in order. There is a motion pending before the committee.

Mr. Veeder There is only one motion pending.

The Chairman-There can be only one motion pending at a time.

Mr. Veeder-Then I give notice that I desire an opportunity to make that motion when it is in order.

The Chairman put the question on the amendment offered by Mr. Spencer, and by a standing vote of fifty-four ayes to thirty-nine noes, it was determined in the affirmative.

Mr. Veeder — Mr. Chairman, I now move to strike out the word "not," in the third line. Is it possible, Mr. Chairman, that the lawyers of this Convention will not trust the people and the good sense of the people as to whom they will select for judges? Must we have a clinch in the Constitution - we lawyers - so as to get