AFTERNOON SESSION Senator SYMINGTON. The hearing will come to order, please. This afternoon we will continue with Dr. Glennan as the principal witness. I believe all the Senators had completed their initial questioning except, perhaps, myself. I have a few questions to which I would like to have answers. Then after yielding to Senator Young who had a question or two, and unless any other Senator has a question at this point, we will go back to the procedure of having counsel develop the record by interrogating the witness. I want to reiterate that the subcommittee's interest is in the organization aspects. We are not asking anyone to justify the existence of the present system, but we want to have a comprehensive picture of the governmental organization involved in order that we can accurately present that picture to the full committee. Dr. Glennan, if I remember your previous testimony correctly, we have at this time no overall space program as a complete entity, but you said you could get together with ARPA and furnish one to us; is that right? TESTIMONY OF DR. KEITH GLENNAN; ACCOMPANIED BY DR. HUGH L. DRYDEN AND JOHN A. JOHNSON-Resumed Dr. GLENNAN. That is, I think, I said programs. You have indicated that Space Council matters are considered privileged. I want to dwell on that a bit to find out the degree of that privilege. As you know, we are dealing with the questions of organization as the primary reason for these hearings. Are the mechanics of organization and the procedures of the Space Council privileged or is it just the contents of specific discussions which are privileged? Dr. GLENNAN. Mr. Symington, my understanding of this matter of privilege is that the matters on which advice is asked and given, and the details of that advice would be within the privilege. That is the type of material which would be privileged. I would say to you, sir, that there is nothing about the results of that advice that you cannot know or that you cannot get from me or from other people who are members of that Council. Senator SYMINGTON. I was a little apprehensive with your answer when Senator Smith asked if there was something that you could give us in an executive hearing and you said, no, that it could not even be given in executive hearing. Dr. GLENNAN. Well, I think the question as asked of me was whether going into executive hearing would change that aspect of the question Senator SYMINGTON. That is right. Dr. GLENNAN (continuing). And I said no, it would not. APPREHENSION FELT BY SENATOR SYMINGTON My apprehension is occasioned by the possible absence of knowledge that the Congress should have before acting upon the appropriations that your agency is going to require for your program. Dr. GLENNAN. I think, Senator, as I say, I believe you can get any information that you want by questioning me or Mr. McElroy. Senator SYMINGTON. Would you recommend that the committee, in order to get the full picture, call in Defense witnesses to determine the full military space picture? Dr. GLENNAN. I would, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. Well, if the committee wants the full picture in detail, am I correct in assuming that it must call in NASA, DOD, the military services, and a group of other agencies, and then guess from the various parts of testimony what part the Space Council plays? Ďr. GLENNAN. I think that with respect to the Nation's program in space, as set up in the law, there are two elements of this program, one, military, and one, civilian. There is nothing about the civilian end of this that I cannot tell you. I will tell you everything that you want to know. I would say the same must be true of the military, although I would presume there may be other matters of security with which you would speak with them in some instances in executive session. Now, with respect to what you would draw from that as to what actually went on in the Space Council, I couldn't say. COMPARISON OF SPACE COUNCIL AND NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL Senator SYMINGTON. I believe that the National Security Council was visualized by Secretary Forrestal and Mr. Ferdinand Eberstadt as a good idea because it would be a forum where the military and the civilian would meet on an equal level to advise the President. It appears that this Space Council is being interpreted for the space field as having the same type and character of organization, structure, and function as the NSC; is that a fair analysis? PRESIDENT ENTITLED TO SECURE ADVICE AND COUNSEL Dr. GLENNAN. I believe that is the way the President looks at it, Mr. Symington; and I suspect it arises out of the fact that the President believes he is entitled to secure advice and counsel from people on matters that are of importance, and that in order to have that advice and counsel completely frank and responsive, this concept of executive privilege has arisen. Senator SYMINGTON. Do you know whether the President feels that the AEC, in the nuclear picture, should be changed into another NSC-type organization-similar to the way he visualizes the space organization? Has that ever been discussed? Dr. GLENNAN. Not to my knowledge, not with me, at any rate. Senator SYMINGTON. You are experienced in administration. Why did we use the commission-type organization in the atomic energy field, including both the civilian and the military, and then do it this other way with NASA, ARPA, and an overriding council? Could you answer that? Dr. GLENNAN. No, sir; I cannot. I suspect this was debated last year when you were debating the law, was it not? Senator SYMINGTON. I do not recall it, if it was. Would Dr. Dryden care to comment on that? Dr. DRYDEN. This was debated at great length in the House committee; I cannot say it was in the Senate committee. Senator SYMINGTON. I was referring to the separation of the civilian from the military with an overriding council as compared with the commission arrangement of the AEC. Dr. DRYDEN. In talking about the commission form as against the administrative form, I think the council was introduced in the Senate. DISCUSSION OF ROLE OF BUREAU OF THE BUDGET Senator SYMINGTON. Does the Bureau of the Budget in actuality really make the final decisions on the Nation's overall space program because it appears from your testimony that nowhere is the complete package coordinated except there? Dr. GLENNAN. I do not think I would agree that the Bureau of the Budget makes the national space program. It happens that if we were only one agency in this activity instead of two, then I suppose one could say that in debating the amount of money which the President was willing to ask the Congress for in support of this, that a certain blocking in of a space program would occur. In this instance, the debate, if you will, between ARPA and ourselves with respect to the adequacy of the space program was held both within and without the budgetary framework or budgetary hearings actually, and I think I would prefer to view this as our having agreed that within the amount of money which the President was willing to allocate, that the total space program should require, we worked out what did finally become a program which we are supporting before the Congress now. Senator SYMINGTON. Who is "we"? You and who else? Senator SYMINGTON. Suppose the military feel that they need so much money for space activities, and you feel that you need so much money for space activities. By whom and where is the decision made as to which gets what percentage or proportion of the total money which is obtained for space? Dr. GLENNAN. This decision was a joint meeting sort of thing where we agreed upon the elements of the program each of us were going to support. Senator SYMINGTON. I am sure you ultimately agreed, because the President ultimately told you, but I know there were differences of opinion prior to that final decision. Where was the discussion held in which decisions subject to the final decision were made? DISCUSSION WITH ARPA AND DR. KILLIAN Dr. GLENNAN. The discussion with ARPA took place with Mr. Killian on two occasions in which the total national program was discussed, and the division of effort that came out of that was then costed. Senator SYMINGTON. Where was that meeting held? Dr. GLENNAN. In the Executive Office Building. Senator SYMINGTON. The Executive Offices of the White House? Dr. GLENNAN. No; the Executive Office Building-I guess it is the Executive Offices of the White House, the old State Department Building. Senator SYMINGTON. The old State Building? Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. Who was at the meeting? Dr. GLENNAN. Dr. Quarles Senator SYMINGTON. Did he represent the Defense Department? Dr. GLENNAN. Mr. York. Senator SYMINGTON. Did Mr. York represent the Defense Department? Dr. GLENNAN. York, Dave Young, I think, and Larry Gise, Mr. Dryden, Mr. Silverstein, and myself. Senator SYMINGTON. And Dr. Killian? Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. Did Dr. Killian chair the meeting? Dr. GLENNAN. Yes. (See p. 747.) Senator SYMINGTON. At that time did he tell you what the decision was as to how much money could be spent overall? Dr. GLENNAN. No, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. There was no guideline given you at that time? Dr. GLENNAN. No. Senator SYMINGTON. Did the members of each group present what they thought they needed? Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, and there was duplication. Senator SYMINGTON. And that was ironed out at the meeting? Dr. GLENNAN. That is right, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. Was that given to the Bureau of the Budget? Dr. GLENNAN. Finally, yes. Senator SYMINGTON. And they accepted that figure? Dr. GLENNAN. No. I think, as a matter of fact, we lost another $25 million or $30 million before it went to the President. REVIEW OF SPACE PROGRAM BY BUDGET BUREAU Senator SYMINGTON. Just what does the Bureau of the Budget do with respect to the space program? What is their competence in this field? Did they review the decision of you and Dr. Killian and Secretary Quarles and the rest who participated and then reduce that figure? Dr. GLENNAN. They reviewed the budget that we presented, following the discussions that we had, the joint discussions. Senator SYMINGTON. Did they reduce that figure? Dr. GLENNAN. They asked us if we could not get along without some of the construction facilities, I believe, and we did. Senator SYMINGTON. Thank you, sir. If I remember your testimony correctly, you said that the President really makes the final decisions on the overall comprehensive space program; is that correct? Dr. GLENNAN. That is right, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. Dr. Killian was delegated this authority to be the chairman for a meeting between you and your associates from NASA and Secretary Quarles and his associates from the Department of Defense, and an agreement was developed as to the funds required. Then that figure was cut by the Bureau of the Budget, which is also a part of the White House staff. That could only be done with the President's approval; is that not correct? Dr. GLENNAN. That is right. Senator SYMINGTON. I am only asking that question for clarification. Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir; that is true. Senator SYMINGTON. If that is correct, then who packages all the various segments and makes the final recommendation to the President? In other words, who told the President that there should be a further cut in what you and Dr. Killian had agreed on? Dr. GLENNAN. I would like to correct one impression there, Mr. Symington. Senator SYMINGTON. Please do. Dr. GLENNAN. It is not my recollection that as a result of the meeting at which Mr. Killian was present that the total sum of this budget was set. We were still in the act of settling on a total amount with which we could get on with the program. The real decisions taken there were on duplication of effort, the elimination of that, and the allocation of some aspects of the program as between the two agencies; that is, the communications and meteorological satellites, where there was to be activity in a single field by both agencies, and so forth. Then, I suspect that one would say that the normal budgetary process took place from there on, with which you are familiar. Senator SYMINGTON. Has Dr. Killian ever chaired either temporarily or throughout a meeting of the Space CouncilDr. GLENNAN. No, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. He has not. DISCUSSION OF "WORKING LEVEL" COMMITTEE Has he ever chaired temporarily a meeting of the working-level committee? Dr. GLENNAN. I don't-this is not the working level. When you speak of the working-level committee, will you tell me what you mean by that? Senator SYMINGTON. I thought you told me this was a workinglevel committee. Dr. GLENNAN. If I understand your question correctly— |