to be stupid enough to work do you. How will you get a student like this to desire to work? We must have a normal rationale of need. We all work, Senator Ervin, most of us because of fear that we may lose our home, our groceries or in some way injure our family. You know, that is an old fashioned need. You do that, I do that. I am sure most of us do that. But the only way that is instilled is if that fear is somewhat real. Those who are playing a game should certainly be stopped because this is destroying their children and because they are seeing this as a practical application that you do not have to work, so why study. It is a tremendous reverse English of Americanism.

Senator ERVIN. The great sculptor, Michelangelo, expressed the same thoughts you are expressing now in a very cryptic phrase. He said, "it is only well with me when I have a chisel in my hand."

Dr. SCHADE. Right, good work is a great therapy. It really is.

I had the opportunity to speak to a class of children, in one school I visited. I answered many questions from the youngsters, and these were extremely intelligent questions. They were very proper in allowing chances to speak back and forth and they were excellent. I said regardless of what you choose as a vocation, and you should begin to think of this early in life so you can set a goal-whatever this goal is try to get that what you like to do because the days will be light and the days will not be heavy and burdensome. One of them said, "like our teacher." Their teacher was a white teacher. They thought the world of her. They recognized the need to find your niche in life. In that way we should help in every way we can. But we must temper our extreme giveaway programs which in effect destroy people.

Senator ERVIN. The overall objective of education is to enable each boy and girl, all boys and girls, to make of themselves whatever God gave them any possibility to become, isn't that true?

Dr. SCHADE. You are right.

Senator ERVIN. You do have to have motivation to make young people want to achieve, just like you have to have incentives to make adults achieve something.

Dr. SCHADE. You are right. How many people will have been excellent singers in an average community, and their talent is never really used. Perhaps a local plumber or carpenter, or sometimes tradesman, and they are very happy in their work. You know, they have their druthers. They say maybe I have a good voice but I don't want to have a singing career. Don't you think Americans should have that right and they are happy in it. You get back to the choice of the people to try and instill in their own children the great desire to make America what it should be. I call America the greatest do-it-yourself kit in the world, and it should be that way as much as possible because it allows each individual to express himself in the way of life he wants to live.

By the way, I have also encouraged as board president in the past and also encouraged comments from people who diversely were opposites of mine, and this is the American way and it is as it should be. I think the matter of booing someone down who wishes to speak is just as bad as a chairman who won't let him speak.

The other night we had 1,100 people at our meeting. Naturally they got carried away a little. As you have noticed, I have been their champion. As I spoke to them I said please, let us remain Americans.

Let us not become uncivilized. Let's go through the courts and the proper procedures of law and not get hotheaded and have any damage to children or buses or things of this type, never. They heeded this remarkably. I had the desegregation director, a black gentleman, Mr. Blackwell, come to me the next day at the Kiwanis and he thanked me for appealing to the crowd.

Senator Ervin, I think you are doing a tremendous service by trying to bring out the voices of the downtrodden majority of Americans. We never want to neglect our minority. We want to hear from them and do what we can to help, but I just don't see the minority directing the American scene over the objection of the majority.

Senator ERVIN. I have always felt that the essence of the American dream is that individuals should be as free from governmental regulation and coercion as the interests of the Commonwealth permit. It seems to me the whole concept of forced busing is alien to the American dream.

Dr. SCHADE. I agree 100 percent, Senator.

Senator ERVIN. There is another thing I have encountered in connection with this matter. I think forced busing and the arbitrary assignment of teachers on the basis of racial quotas to schools by Federal courts or HEW impedes the educational process in another way. There are many teachers, many capable teachers, who are limited to teach in a particular school located near their homes. Because of a longtime association with friends on the faculty of a particular school some teachers are unwilling to be required to travel long distances to other schools and be assigned to schools that they are not willing to teach in. This keeps a great many people out of the teaching profession and drives a great many from the teaching profession-many of the most competent teachers.

Dr. SCHADE. Certainly. This is a problem before us, so we must desegregate our staff as well.

It is interesting, a few years ago we had some very militant people get 380 students in open rebellion in front of one of our high schools. They sent runners through the building and said you, you, and you, you are black, get out there where you belong. This is not democracy to me. Immediately after the uproar I asked to meet with the black students having problems with their schools. I wanted to hear what they had to say. As we met, very privately, I explained to them what I wished for them to hear was what I had to say, not what the paper said I had to say. I wanted to hear from them what they had to say and not what some of the black militant organizations claimed they had to say. We sat down and really talked things over, and they were the most brilliant and most astute citizens you would want to sit with. One of the amazing things was there were six counselors, and the students claimed two of the counselors were extremely interested in students and four, in their book, were interested in the clock. Also, amazingly enough, the counselor they thought the most of was a white counselor. We had been having a tremendous discourse in the community that it took a black counselor to understand and relate to a black student, and we should therefore secure more black counselors, which we attempted to do. I said it is amazing to me that you are hung up on this white counselor. Could we conclude, then, students that reallywhat makes a good counselor is not the color of the skin but the heart

on the inside and the interest in children. They agreed. They see through this fallacy. I hope as coming citizens they will do a better job in combating some of these irregularities.

Senator ERVIN. I sometimes hear the argument made that forced busing to overcome racial imbalance or to achieve racial balance is justified because there is a great deal of busing in the United States to get children to the nearest school available for their age and scholastic attainments. It seems to me that those two types of busing are probably as dissimilar as two activities can be. One is an activity designed to deny children the right to attend neighborhood schools and to bus them to distant schools elsewhere merely to mix the races in the schools in certain proportions satisfactory to some HEW bureaucrat. The other is to get the child to the nearest school for his age and educational attainment. One is to implement some social scientist's misguided notions about how people should behave. The other is for a truly educational purpose.

Dr. SCHADE. Right. We have found the people in Rockford very strongly in favor in my urging of the neighborhood-school concept, but parallel with it, open housing. We have received standing ovations from a group of 1,100 the other night. When I had admonished them the American school is a great concept but along with that must go the dream that any American citizen has the right to live in that neighborhood, and thev agreed. This is the pattern that will make for cooperative mixing of races and colors and creeds, where people will be there because they want to be there. This is why I have advocated the voluntarv plan, because the attitude of the child and parent will be positive and it will prosper, whereas a negative attitude will not prosper.

Senator ERVIN. You agree with me in the observation that what this country needs at this particular moment is more individual freedom and less Government coercion?

Dr. SCHADE. Yes, indeed.

Senator ERVIN. Thank you very much for your very fine statement. It is extremely valuable because of your long connection with the public school system.

Dr. SCHADE. It has certainly been an honor to appear here, and I am happy to see you taking the stand vou are now, sir. Thank you.

Senator ERVIN. The committee will stand in recess until tomorrow in room 3302 of the New Senate Office Building.

[Whereupon, at 11:40 a.m., the committee was recessed to meet Wednesday, February 20, 1974, in room 3302, New Senate Office Building.]

BUSING OF SCHOOLCHILDREN

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1974

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS

OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in room 3302, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Senator Sam Ervin, Jr. (chairman), presiding.

Present: Senator Ervin.

Also present: William E. Pursley, Jr., chief counsel, Senate Subcommittee on Revision and Codification of Law.

Senator ERVIN. The subcommittee will come to order.

Since yesterday the chairman of the Judiciary Committee has referred to this subcommittee an additional bill designed to prohibit the involuntary busing of schoolchildren for integration purposes. This is Senate bill S. 2336, introduced by my colleague, Senator Helms. We will insert a copy of that bill in the record today and it will be considered along with the other bills which were placed in the record yesterday.

[The above referred to bill follows:]

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