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respecting the Scotch Education Depart- | the Lord Advocate that we were an

ment. It had been said that the Department would have nothing to do while the Commissioners were sitting; but that was not correct, for it would have to see to the distribution in Scotland of that part of the Imperial money to which Scotland was entitled, and to take care that the conditions on which that money was received were fulfilled, and of course it would be paid for doing that work. With regard to the character of the Department, he must refer hon. Gentlemen to the explanations already given in the course of these discussions. The Scotch Department would be similar to the English Education Department, which was constituted in this way-there were the Lord President of the Council and the Vice President, who had to deal with the administrative work, and were responsible to the House of Commons for the management of educational matters; these were assisted, and, in point of fact, would be controlled, by a Committee of the Council for Education, a new Committee being appointed wheneverachange of Ministry took place. That Committee would be carefully selected as regarded Scotland, and the belief was that it would be for the advantage of Imperial as well as Scotch interests that the administration of education in Scotland, so far as Parliament had to do with it, should be entrusted to the Lord President and the Vice President, as now the case in England, with the assistance of a Special Committee of Council for Scotland. [Cries of "Names!"] He did not think they ought to be called upon to give the names, and certainly they could - not pledge a future Administration in the matter, for the Committee changed from Government to Government. But this he would say, that there ought to be appointed a Committee of Council, which should contain a fair and influential representation of Scotch views and feelings. MR. MACFIE thought that the explanations which the right hon. Gentleman had just given would hardly realize the just expectations of the people of the North. He trusted, however, that the Committee would be so constituted in respect of Members with ecclesiastical leanings and persons possessing acquaintance with Scotch educational matters that all the apprehensions hitherto entertained would disappear under its satisfactory working. It was remarked by

United Kingdom. So we were, but there were some Scotch matters which Scotland wished to see regulated in accordance with Scotch feeling. There were five important divisions on this Bill, in which a very large numerical majority of the Scotch Members had been out-voted on the most vital points of the measure by the English Members. He was not a Home Ruler, but he must say that such a result could hardly conciliate Scotch feeling.

Motion agreed to.

New Clause agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday next, at Two of the clock, and to be printed. [Bill 204.]

MINES (COAL) REGULATION (re-com-
mitted) BILL-[BILL 150.]
(Mr.Secretary Bruce, Mr. Winterbotham.)

COMMITTEE.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Preamble be postponed."

MR. STAVELEY HILL said, he wished to receive some explanations from the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary before proceeding further with the Bill. When the Bill was brought forward in 1870, the Amendments suggested bythe Mines Association stood in his (Mr. S. Hill's) name on the Paper. Those Amendments embodied arrangements of existing differences between masters and men which had been come to at a meeting under the presidency of the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire. In 1870 the Bill was dropped, and in 1871 there was a similar result. In the present Session, when the Bill was about to be brought forward, it was thought advisable that all the difficulties likely to arise should be thoroughly considered by the three parties most interested, with a view to see how far those difficulties could be removed, so that the measure proposed might have the full assent of the House, and might not take up time unduly in its discussion. Accordingly, a Conference of the coalmasters, represented by the Mines Association, and of the men represented by Mr. Macdonald, was held at the Westminster Palace Hotel, and the Home

!

Office was represented there by the Mines Inspectors, Mr. Dickinson and Mr. Wynne. These representatives of the three interests concerned held meetings for five days under the presidency of the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire; every question that arose was fully discussed, and at last an agreement was come to on all points, with one or two minor exceptions. The Report on the subject was very fully considered, and finally delivered at the Home Office on the 23rd of March. It was not without some surprise, therefore, that he saw, when the Bill was again printed, that on some of the most vital points the original measure remained unchanged, and that the Home Secretary had not adopted the agreements come to between masters and men upon full consideration. The points to which attention had been especially called were those with reference to certificated managers and certain general rules. Clause 15 of the Bill referred to wages, and might be called the wages clause. When matters were discussed between the masters and men

there was a Master and Servant Bill before the House, and it was agreed that the 15th clause should remain in the Bill, lest anything should happen to the Master and Servant Bill; but if that Bill was to be proceeded with, then that this 15th clause might be struck out. He thought that some explanations on the points to which he had adverted ought to be given by the Home Secretary before proceeding further.

MR. PEASE expressed a hope that the Home Secretary would not delegate his authority to any body of men. Whatever might be the opinion of the Coal Owners Association, he could state from personal communication with the miners, that many of the Amendments were not in accordance with their wishes.

MR. BRUCE said, that he had nothing to complain of in the statement of his hon. and learned Friend, except that he had somewhat overrated the authority given to the Inspectors. They were certainly not ordered to attend, but a request having been made that they might attend the deliberations of the Conference, he was perfectly willing that they should. When the Amendments were brought before him, he carefully guarded himself against saying anything further than that he would give them his best consideration, and his hon. and learned Mr. Staveley Hill

Friend could not allege it as a grievance that he had not done so, seeing that he had adopted about 15 of them. The question of wages was a very important one, and could not be properly discussed in this Bill. He hoped the Committee would resist any alteration in the law until the whole question could be discussed, whether this Session or next year, and he believed that both labourers and employers would be unwilling to see any alteration in the law till that question had been far more fully discussed than it could possibly be in this Bill.

LORD ELCHO said, he had no desire to claim greater authority for the Conference than it really deserved, or to override the functions of the House; but there was in that Conference a very full representation of masters and men; these Amendments had been most fully and carefully considered, with an earnest desire to come to a settlement upon them; and, therefore, they came before the Committee at least with a prima facie case in their favour.

Motion agreed to; Preamble postponed accordingly.

Preliminary.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Commencement of Act).

MR. BRUEN moved, in page 1, line 11, after "operation" to insert "in England and Scotland;" and in line 12, after "seventy-three," to insert "and in Ireland not until the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and seventyfour." The object of the Amendment was to postpone the operation of the Act in Ireland until the 1st of January, 1874.

MR. BRUCE said, he would admit that there was a fair ground for postponement in the case of Ireland, but thought that the postponement should be for a year only, instead of two.

MR. BOUVERIE asked whether there was to be any provision for the inspection of coal mines in Ireland? He believed there were no inflammable coal mines in Ireland, whatever other inflammable materials might be found there.

MR. BRUCE said, that only one-fifth of the accidents which happened in coal mines were caused by explosions; fourfifths resulted from other accidents caused by the want of proper overlooking and discipline; and it was to provide for were introduced into the Bill. Hitherto, Ireland had not been included in these Acts; but the Government had received communications which satisfied them that Ireland should now be included. The work of inspection would be very light there; but ample employment would be found for one Inspector. He would move to amend the Amendment by inserting 1874, instead of 1875.

such cases that many new provisions | tleman on three grounds that female the brickfields, which prohibited in future | engaged in this industry, that was not

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.

PART I.

Employment of Women, Young Persons,

and Children.

Clause 4 (Employment of women and children in mines).

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MR. WHEELHOUSE, in moving as an Amendment in page 1, line 18, after "boy," to insert save as excepted by section eleven of this Act," said, there was an earnest desire on the part of every miner in England that female labour should be prohibited on the "bank-top" as well as under-ground. He was aware that a contrary opinion had been expressed by a Select Committee; but in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Durham the general custom was not to employ women in coal-mining, even above ground, and much demoralization would be prevented if there was a statutory prohibition of such employment all over the kingdom. He was aware that the question of wages was mixed up with such a prohibition; but he hoped that the Committee would not allow the question of wages to influence them when decency and morality were at stake, and when women by this employment were withdrawn from the care of their families and from home associations.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, the Committee must be careful not to allow the arguments of a specious philanthropy to lead them from the regions of common sense, or they would be really doing an injury to the very persons they desired to serve. To say that labour outside the pits was unadvisable for women was one thing; absolutely to prohibit it was quite another; and he certainly hoped that the Committee would not accept the Amendment. It had been advocated by the hon, and learned Gen

labour at the pit's mouth was indecent, that it withdrew them from their home duties, and that they themselves wished to have it done away with. He must first of all protest against the statement that this question had not been thoroughly considered by the Select Committee. In fact, a great number of working miners were called before it; and though many of them objected to this employment of women, as leading to indecency and immorality, many others were of the contrary opinion, and evinced the greatest dislike to its being prohibited by law. The evidence of the Inspectors of Mines was, that it would be a great hardship to these women to prevent their labouring as hitherto, that it would deprive them of many comforts, that they were as moral a sort of women as any in the kingdom, and that the work was free from indecency. No doubt, working at the pit's mouth interfered with their home duties and associations; but as much might be said of any form of female labour, whether outside mines or inside factories, and he thought, therefore, that the Committee should be careful how they interfered in the matter.

MR. BROWN stated that it appeared from the Report of the Miners' Commission that the practice of employing females was degrading to the sex, and led to gross immorality. It would be desirable, therefore, not to prohibit absolutely females labouring at the pit's bank, but to enact that none under a certain age should do so, because the chief danger of moral contamination would be removed if young girls were kept away.

MR. BRUEN said, that there was none of the immorality which had been alluded to observable at the mines in Ireland, and the prevention of the employment of women there would be a great hardship.

MR. MUNDELLA said, that the measure could hardly deserve to be called a "Mines Regulation Bill" at all, if this question of the labour of women was not to be dealt with. From actual observation, and from the universal testimony of those best fitted to speak with authority, he was bound to say that this employment of women was degrading and disgraceful to the nation. Something at least might be done to the same purpose as the enactment of last year in the case of young women under a certain age from working in them. By that means no injustice could be done to those now engaged in the work; and the Committee might be sure that if a woman did not begin this sort of employment before 18 years of age she would never begin it at all. No sight could be more degrading than to see women in attire almost like that of men, with coalheavers' hats on their heads, smoking pipes with the men, drinking with them in the publichouses, and, he was told, sometimes fighting with them afterwards in the streets. It might be said that women were as free as men to enter into contracts; but though that was all very well in theory, the fact was, that they were sent as girls to this work by their parents, and were not free agents till they were about 18 years old, and then only till marriage; for a woman in that class was very much the slave of her husband -was his horse, his ass, his anything. The House ought to interfere in the interests of the women themselves, of their children, and of public decency and morality; and he should certainly support his hon. Friend if he went to a division, though he would suggest that the Amendment should not now be pressed; but that words should be moved in a later clause, prohibiting the employmen at the pit's mouth of women under a certain age.

MR. STAVELEY HILL said, he had lived in South Staffordshire for many years and was well acquainted with the work referred to, and with the class of persons engaged in it, and from his own experience he could say that no young women of a better class, more straightforward in their manner, more respectable, or whose dress was more thoroughly becoming to them, could be found engaged in any other employment in the kingdom. He must therefore express his surprise at the language of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella).

MR. FLETCHER said, he hoped that the Committee would not be misled by the eloquence of the hon. and learned Member who had moved the Amendment, because, although he quite agreed that in some parts of Wales and of South Staffordshire women were to be foundemployed on the "bank-top" who were not properly dressed, still, in Cumberland, where a large number of women were

Mr. Mandella

the case. The work of sorting out the refuse from the coal was neither hard nor degrading, and it was performed under cover. The women who picked out this refuse were better adapted to the work than men were, and they earned 98. a-week by their labour. If the Amendment were adopted, a large number of deserving women would be deprived of the means of support which was now open to them.

MR. HÜSSEY VIVIAN, who had been one of the Select Committee appointed to investigate this subject, in opposition to the statement of the hon. and learned Member for Leeds, said, that the Committee had examined a great number of working miners before coming to a conclusion on this matter.

MR. T. HUGHES said, that the evidence of the working miners examined by the Committee did not bear upon the point now under discussion.

MR. HUSSEY VIVIAN proceeded to remark that the Committee had done their best to obtain the fullest information on the subject, and they had made a most conscientious Report. The question of the employment of women had engaged his attention for many years, and he had done his best to prevent them being employed on work for which they were not fitted; still he thought much hardship would be inflicted were Parliament to lay down the hard-and-fast law that no women were to be employed on collieries, even above ground.

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, that the Committee ought to feel obliged to the hon. and learned Member for Leeds for having brought this question under their notice, because he believed that all that had been said about the demoralizing effect of this description of labour upon women was perfectly true. He thought, however, that the suggestion of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) should be accepted-namely, that no girls or women under a certain age should be employed in this sort of labour; for upon them it undoubtedly had a demoralizing effect. If the Amendment was now pressed, and in its present form, he was afraid that the object of those who favoured it would be defeated; and he thought it would be far better to move in the 3rd sub-section of the 11th clause words providing that be employed at the pit's mouth.

women under 20 years of age should not | this question. He deprecated legislation

MR. BRUCE said, he agreed with the last speaker that considerable inconvenience would result from discussing this Amendment on the earlier clauses of the Bill, when it could be much more appropriately debated on Clause 11. He, however, felt bound to state, at the same time, that he was entirely opposed to carrying much further the interference with women's labour. It might be quite true that in some places this description of labour was of a demoralizing character, but, at the same time, he did not think that it was as demoralizing as many other descriptions of female labour. The best course that could be adopted, in his view of the matter, was to leave the employment of women to be regulated by the improved feelings of our countrymen. It had been shown that in certain districts women were less employed in this sort of labour than in others, and that might, perhaps, arise from a higher sense of duty on the subject in those districts, though he believed the chief cause was that it happened that other descriptions of employment could be had by the women there.

COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN said, he hoped that, as the Amendment had already been discussed at considerable length, it would not be withdrawn, but that its principle would be at once determined by the Committee.

MR. T. HUGHES said, he thought it absurd to object to the Amendment as an interference with freedom of compact, for the clause as it stood interfered with it as regarded labour below ground. Eye witnesses reported that this labour was very degrading, and his own limited observation led him to agree with them. He should like to hear the evidence of a working miner on this point.

MR. HENLEY said, he regarded the Amendment as too vague. The kinds of labour to be prohibited should be defined, or otherwise the prohibition might apply to lighting fires and cooking dinners.

MR. JACOB BRIGHT said, that the hon. and learned Member for Frome (Mr. T. Hughes) was anxious to hear the opinion of a working man on this point; but why did he not consult the women whose employment was proposed to be taken away? He (Mr. Bright) hoped the Government would be firm on VOL. CCXII. [THIRD SERIES.]

which, at a time when women were properly seeking new fields of employment, would render it more difficult for them to earn a living. There might, perhaps, be sufficient reason for prohibiting women from working below, but he had heard no sufficient reason for extending prohibition to labour above ground.

He

SIR JOSEPH BAILEY also opposed the Amendment, on the ground that there was a variety of light labour which devolved on women and boys. would be no party to taking the bread out of the mouths of these poor women. By adopting the Amendment there would arise the necessity of doubling the population in the mining districts, and that would be the cause of great economical troubles.

MR. J. S. HARDY said, he hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn; but if that was not allowed, he should vote for it, preferring total prohibition to the present demoralizing state of things. Parliament had interfered with many trades in which women were only too anxious to be employed, and when attempts were made to shorten the hours of labour of dressmakers, the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Jacob Bright), who now came forward as the champion of women, never raised his voice, while he and his friends also opposed the Factory Acts.

MR. FOTHERGILL said, he must protest against the idea that any woman who wore soiled clothes must necessarily be immoral. So far as his experience went, immorality was principally confined to women who wore smart clothes. He had lived in a mining district all his life, and he had no hesitation in saying that the wives and daughters of colliers and miners were as well able to take care of themselves and their honour as any other class of women in the country. It was said that they wore men's clothes, but the fact was that, as a matter of propriety, their trousers were lengthened to their ankles, and occasionally they put on a man's coat to protect them against the rain.

LORD ELCHO, when in communication a few years ago with working miners, said, he found that they had a picture of a woman dressed as had been described; but though they raised this point it did not appear to be one on which they laid stress. Mr. Dickinson,

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