1 THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said, the best method still prevailed; but the subject raised by the noble Earl up to the present time the prepon opposite (the Earl of Lauderdale) had derance was on the whole in favour of a special navigating class. It was contended, and with much apparent force, that the knowledge of navigation possessed by officers whose time was much occupied by other duties could not be so thorough and so practical as that possessed by officers whose whole time was devoted to the practical study of navigation. The whole subject was engaging the serious attention of the Admiralty; but the opinions of the most experienced officers were divided, and the question was altogether in so unsettled a state that it was not at present thought advisable to abolish the navigating class as a separate branch of the service. THE DUKE OF SOMERSET thought discussion upon so technical a subject would not be very profitable. He had appointed the Committee in 1862 because much discontent had arisen between the masters and other officers on grounds corresponding with the differences existing between the officers of the Line and the Scientific Corps, discussed the other evening. As an experiment the Admiralty had decided to do away with the title of master, and substitute that of navigating lieutenant and staff commander, the ultimate change to be decided by experience. It would certainly be unwise to do away with the special rank and special position of the officers responsible for the navigation of Her Majesty's vessels until they were certain that there were lieutenants sufficiently capable of performing this service. The matter, however, was one in which the Admiralty might safely be allowed to do justice to the officers, having at the same time due regard to the interests of the service. THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE, in reply, observed that if Her Majesty's ships were obliged to be insured by the Lords of the Admiralty, very good care would be taken not to buy ininferior coals or contract ropes, and to provide every vessel with a competent master. ACROBATS BILL [H.L.] A Bill to prevent the employment of young persons as Acrobats and Gymnasts in certain cases-Was presented by The Lord BUCKHURST; read 1a. (No. 173.) House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] SUPPLY - considered in Committee -Resolutions [June 24] reported-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. PUBLIC BILLS- First Reading-Bank of England (Election of Directors)* [211]. Committee-Mines (Coal) Regulation (re-comm.) [150]-R.P. Committee-Report - Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Acts Amendment * [202]. Considered as amended-Education (Scotland) [204-210]: Life Assurance Companies Acts Amendment [115]. Considered as amended-Third Reading-Juries Act Amendment (Ireland) [195], and passed. The House met at Two of the clock. SAVING LIFE FROM WRECK, &c.ROCKET APPARATUS. QUESTION. SIR DAVID WEDDERBURN asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been directed to the delay and difficulty frequently experienced in establishing communication with vessels stranded on a lee shore, when the rocket apparatus has to be used against a gale of wind, and the firing party, as in the recent case of the "Hotspur," may fire for hours before a line is carried over; and, whether he will consider of a regulation by which the loss of life caused by such delay might be prevented, obliging every vessel to carry a properly fitted apparatus, together with a copy of instructions as to its use, and as to landing the shipwrecked after communication with the shore has been established? MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE, in reply, said, he had inquired into the subject, and he must say that he had no reason to think that much difficulty was experienced in communicating between the shore and a stranded vessel by means of the rocket apparatus, provided, of course, the stranded vessel was within range. But in the case of a rolling ship, if the rocket were fired from the vessel instead of the shore there would be a practical difficulty in sending the line on shore. Besides, if the suggestion of the hon. Member were adopted, an Act would have to be passed to compel all sea-going vessels to carry rocket apparatus on board, and in order to give proper effect to such a law it would have to be enforced by penalties; and it was no easy matter to keep rocket apparatus in constant efficiency on board ship. Should, however, the hon. Member communicate with the Board of Trade, he should have every information given to him, and his suggestion would receive careful consideration. EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL-[BILL 204.] Bill, as amended, considered. Clause 3 (Department may employ Officers in Scotland). THE LORD ADVOCATE said, his right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Council and himself had been carefully considering whether Clause 3 might be omitted, and they had come to the conclusion that it might. He now moved, therefore, the omission of that clause. Amendment agreed to. Clause struck out. Clause 6 (Area of a parish and area of a burgh). MR. M'LAREN moved, in page 4, to leave out from "limits," in line 27, to "within," in line 28. The hon. Member said that as the clause stood the power of levying rates for schools was confined to the ancient limits of the burghs, and did not include the police boundaries, which in many cases extended much further, and his object was to remedy that defect. Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 27, to leave out from the word "limits," to the word "within," in line 28.-(Mr. M'Laren.) Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the THE LORD ADVOCATE assented to Clause 58 (Removal of teachers appointed before the passing of this Act). THE LORD ADVOCATE moved, in page 23, at end of clause, add "It shall be the duty of the sheriff of the county, or one of his substitutes, to attend any meeting of a School Board for a public inquiry under the provisions of this Clause, if requested so to do by the board or by the teacher to whom the inquiry relates, by a letter addressed to the sheriff clerk not less than six days before the first meeting for such inquiry; and the sheriff or sheriff substitute so attending may administer the oaths to the witnesses, and shall take a note of the evidence, and give all proper assistance to the board in conducting the inquiry, but shall have no voice in the judgment. It shall be lawful for any sheriff to nominate a fit and proper person to act as his substitute at any such meeting, and such person shall be paid out of the school fund a fee, to be fixed by the School Board, not exceeding five pounds five shillings for the whole inquiry. The proceedings of a board and the judgment or order thereof shall not be questioned on the ground that a sheriff or sheriff's substitute has attended and acted under this clause without request in ❘tion might suffer if the fees were fixed writing as herein provided, or upon any objection to the date or form of the request." MR. ORR EWING said, he did not think it desirable that a gentleman in the position of the sheriff should be called upon to perform such duties as were contemplated in the Amendment. THE LORD ADVOCATE observed, that that part of the clause was permissive, and he believed that, generally speaking, the county business of the sheriff and the sheriff's substitute would necessitate the nomination of special substitute. Amendment agreed to. MR. M'LAREN moved, in page 25, sub-section 5, line 7, after "Board," leave out to end of sub-section. The hon. Member, after remarking that there had already been a division on that question, said, he believed that the ap too high, and he thought it was, on the whole, desirable to place the same confidence in the school boards in that case as would be reposed in them in other matters. Amendment agreed to. Clause 66 (Conscience Clause). MR. M'LAREN moved, in page 28, line 11, leave out "or," and insert "and." The hon. Member said people out-of-doors had interpreted the clause as meaning, with the word "or," that though it would be competent to the teacher to open school meeting with prayer, and to close it with the singing of a hymn or with praying again, that could not be done at both periods, and he proposed the Amendment for the purpose of removing any doubt on the point. Amendment proposed, in page 28, line pointment of a referee to settle disputes 11, to leave out the word "or," and insert the word "and," -(Mr. M'Laren,) -instead thereof. between the masters and the school boards in the case of the higher class of schools, would lead to all sorts of discord and jealousy. The school boards would in many cases consist of men equal in point of intellect and standing to the London School Board, and he thought it was hardly to be tolerated that a board of 15 gentlemen should be controlled by one person, to be appointed by the Lord Advocate. There was no provision of that kind in the English Education Act. Question proposed, "That the word 'or' stand part of the Bill." THE LORD ADVOCATE said, the object of the clause was that there should be a religious observance both at the commencement and at the end of the secular instruction; but as the matter had been considered doubtful, he would accept the Amendment. MR. CRAUFURD said, he concurred with his right hon. and learned Friend the clause-namely, that the word "or" did not prevent religious instruction being taken at the beginning or at the end of the secular teaching. He feared that the introduction of the word "and," in substitution for the word "or" in the clause, would make prayer appear compulsory, both at the beginning and end; and he therefore preferred to retain the word "or," which did not prevent prayer being used either at the beginning or end. the Lord Advocate in the construction | like to see made compulsory by law. It which he had put upon the language of was certainly not in accordance with the {JUNE 25, 1872} (Scotland) Bill. 174 These words would, he thought, meet | the attendance at school should begin MR. ORR EWING remarked that he should vote for the Amendment of the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren), because the power to give religious instruction at the beginning and end of the secular teaching was necessary in schools attended by children upon the half-time system. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would not listen to the suggestion of the hon. Member (Mr. Craufurd). SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE thought that, as the clause stood, the matter was quite clear. If, however, there was any doubt on the subject, the only way in which that doubt could be removed was to introduce words to the effect that prayer might be used either before or after the secular instruction, or at both periods. MR. ANDERSON said, he had no objection to the thing being made alternative; but he thought that the substitution of the word "and" for “or” would only make the matter more doubtful than before. They might say, "either at the beginning or at the end or at both periods," the matter being left entirely optional. DR. LYON PLAYFAIR trusted that his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate, if he accepted the Amendment, would make it very distinctive, by some additional words, that he did not mean at the beginning “or "at the end, because it was introducing quite a novelty into Scotch teaching. In the great bulk of Scotch schools it was not at the beginning or at the end, but it was usually at the beginning. He did not know what the law signified; but common sense would signify that if they introduced the word "and," it meant both at the beginning and the end, and that was not at all what many hon. Members on his side of the House would Mr. Craufurd practice of Scotch teaching in schools at present. He therefore trusted that his right hon. and learned Friend, if he accepted the Amendment, would make it very clear that this was an alternative, and not to be considered to apply to both periods. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he might be permitted to explain. He should certainly have objeced to the Amendment if he thought for a moment that it would, or by any possible construction could, have the effect of rendering instruction in religion or religious observances imperative, either at the beginning or at the end, or at both periods. He should have resisted altogether if the Amendment were capable of that construction, and although it might savour of a legal argument, he hoped the House would bear with him for a single moment while he pointed out how it was impossible that that construction could be put upon the words. They occurred in an exception from a prohibition. The prohibition was, "and no instruction in religious subjects shall be given" MR. CANDLISH rose to Order. The Lord Advocate had already addressed the House on this clause. MR. SPEAKER: At this stage of the Bill no hon. Member is by the Rules of the House allowed to speak a second time; but, generally speaking, the House is inclined to be indulgent to hon. Members. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he had no wish to trespass unreasonably upon the time of the House. The explanation he intended to give would not occupy a moment. The words of the prohibition were "No religious observance shall take place, except before the commencement or after the termination of the elementary secular instruction of the day." That was a mere exception from the prohibition, and contained nothing in the nature of an injunction. MR. W. H. SMITH said, he thought that the object of the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) would be attained if the words of the English Act were adopted. The words were "Religious instruction shall be given either at the beginning or at the end, or at the beginning and the end of such meeting." the view of the hon. Member, as they would give power to the school boards to exercise a discretion in the matter. MR. M'LAREN said, he could not withdraw his Amendment in favour of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith), because what he suggested had been already discussed and negatived. Question put. The House divided: -Ayes 44; Noes 156: Majority 112. Word "and" inserted. MR. ANDERSON proposed in line 12, after the word "day," to insert "or either of." THE LORD ADVOCATE explained that the clause, with the words proposed, would not be grammatical. He thought the clause was very well as it stood with the Amendment which had just been agreed to; but if they were to have any further amendment of this matter, he did not himself see any grammatical way of effecting the object in view, except by adding after the word "termination" these words "or before the commencement, or after the termination of the secular instruction of the day." If it was in accordance with the general view of the House that these words conveyed the matter more distinctly, he should have no objection to their inser tion. MR. ANDERSON begged to withdraw his Amendment in favour of that of the learned Lord Advocate. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. THE LORD ADVOCATE then proposed in line 11, after the word "termination," to insert the words "or before the commencement, or after the termination." Amendment agreed to. Words inserted. MR. M'LAREN said, the next Amendment which stood in his name he should merely indicate, and then leave it in the hands of the Lord Advocate. It had been already stated strongly in that House that to compel children at the expense of the board to attend school for eight years-namely, from 5 until 13 years of age was quite inconsistent with the habits of the poorer classes, and his Amendment was that at 6 and end at 12, so far as compulsory power was taken in the Bill. Let them be at school as much longer as they pleased; but let them not push compulsion beyond the years he had mentioned. A very large proportion of the children of Scotland left school at 12; and he knew more than one hon. Member of that House who left school at that age. He would not argue the question, but would content himself with proposing in page 28, line 18, to leave out "five" and "thirteen," and insert "six" and "twelve." Amendment proposed, in page 28, line 18, to leave out the word "five," and insert the word "six," - (Mr. M'Laren,) -instead thereof. Question proposed, "That the word 'five' stand part of the Bill." THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he was unable to accept the Amendment. The House had already affirmed that 13 was the proper school age, and it would be the duty of the parents in the first instance, and of the boards in the second, to see that children attended school up to 13 under ordinary circumstances. He had only one word to say in answer to his hon. Friend's suggestion, and that was that compulsion terminated upon a certificate being shown that a child could read and write, and had a small knowledge of arithmetic. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 68 (Defaulting parents may be proceeded against by the procurator fiscal on a certificate from the board). MR. M'LAREN said, he had two Amendments on this clause, the object of which was to introduce a cheaper form of legal procedure. The first Amendment was to enable the board to appoint a person other than the Procurator Fiscal to prosecute a defaulting parent, and the second was to enable the prosecution to be laid before two justices or the sheriff of the county. The hon. Member observed that Procurators Fiscal were "few and far between," while justices of the peace were as plentiful as blackbirds, and concluded by moving, in page 29, line 9, after "resides," to insert "or other person appointed by the board." THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he was not disposed to offer any objection to |