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or at any rate, from the metropolitan | Army to enable them to regain that

regiments only. He believed that from the close of the Crimean War until the right hon. Gentleman opposite came into office the Militia generally found no favour at the hands of successive Governments, and while other Reserve. Forces were petted, the Militia were thrown into the shade. If they had had proper opportunities they would be now more efficient than they were. But since the right hon. Gentleman had come into office, he was speaking the opinion of every Militia officer when he said that they were under great obligations to him for having taken the Militia by the hand. The improvements which the right hon. Gentleman had made and the facilities which he had given had very much tended to the increased efficiency of the Force. There was one thing to which he wished to direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention, and that was with regard to recruiting. He thought it was an erroneous policy not to take men when you could get them, or to limit the recruiting to any period of the year. He was not sure that the proposed arrangements as to military centres would be as popular with the Militia as it was supposed, and if too stringent a supervision was exercised, the Force would lose in popularity, and men would not be very much inclined to enlist. Though he did not stand up for the billeting system, still he thought that where billets could be had in private lodgings no injury could be done to the men. It was a great mistake to reject men who wished to be admitted to the Militia Reserve. They were the cheapest men that could be got. It had been said in the course of the debate, that the Militiaman cost £10 a-year, while the Volunteer cost but £2. But the Militia Reserve man cost only £1 a-year, and 30,000 Militia Reserve men at £30,000 would-without making any invidious comparisons, be a very efficient force and very well worth the money. In his own regiment, for instance, 180 men had offered to join the Militia Reserve, but only 80 of them had been accepted by the military authorities.

SIR HARRY VERNEY said, the Militia in the war with France were stated by the Military authorities of that time to be as efficient as men of the Line, and he was satisfied that they only wanted the advantages of the Regular Colonel Ruggles-Brise

reputation.

COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN said, he agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bedfordshire that this was not the occasion to discuss the principles on which the Militia should be established. That had been settled in a previous Session. If it were the occasion, he might make some suggestions to make the Militia more effective. He thought the hon. Member for Hackney must have had little experience of the Militia from the manner in which he had spoken of it. No doubt their inefficiency during the last Autumn Manœuvres arose from the manner in which they were sent into the field, and from not having had a sufficient amount of drill. He was glad to find that the Secretary of State for War had this year taken the precaution of not sending out any Militia regiment to the Manœuvres unless it had received a month's immediately previous drill, and he had no doubt that they would be found much more efficient than the hon. Member for Hackney supposed. If it could be proved that a combination of the Militia and the Line was not the most efficient defence of the country let the system be abandoned at once, and let us have a permanent Army. He, however, believed the Militia service to be of the greatest advantage to the Regular Army. During the Crimean War 30,000 men who had been only partially drilled were able to take a most effective part in the contest. There was one point to which he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, and that was that under the new arrangements, adjutants who, in the intervals between the annual trainings had occupied the position of commanding officers would now in the depôt centres be placed under the command of officers of the Line, of some of whom it might be almost said they were not born when those adjutants had entered the military service. He thought it would be no serious cost to the country, but an enormous advantage to the several adjutants, if the right hon. Gentleman would consent to increase their retiring pay, so as to enable them to quit the service at an earlier period.

MR. WHITWELL said, the hon. Member for Hackney entirely misunderstood the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman when he supposed that the Army

Reserve was to be a substitute for the Militia. The Government were doing much to improve the character of the Militia; and he wished to assist them, by pointing out that it was desirable that Staff sergeants in the Militia should train Volunteers.

MR. STANLEY said, the hon. Member for Hackney appeared desirous of doing away with the Militia before any positive assurance could be given that the Reserve Force would be found effective. Now, he did not think that there had been experience enough to show that the Militia Force could be thrown over. Whatever had been the conduct of the Militia on former occasions and in former wars, it had always been a powerful machinery in the hands of the Secretary of State; and the Bill sent to the other House the Session before last enabled the Government to do away with many technical difficulties which formerly stood in the way of the embodiment of the Militia. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman if in the course of the discussion he would be able to give the Committee any assurance respecting the various steps that were in contemplation, or being carried into effect, for the more complete amalgamation of the various Auxiliary Forces of the country? Up to the present time it was not known, he believed, how long it would take to carry into effect the detals of the amalgamation scheme, and it was important, he thought, that information should as soon as possible be given on that point. He wished also to observe that recent experience had strengthened him in the belief that it would be very difficult to get the old and new Staffs to work well together at the depôt centres. Without any disparagement to the non-commissioned officers who composed the Militia Staffs, he might suggest that they were men who, tired of the active life of a soldier, had determined to settle down in certain spots and to perform certain duties, and if they were now to be called on to perform duties entirely different from those which they had proposed to themselves, the probability was, that they might be led to think that they had been hardly used, and that their complaints would operate to deter others from similar employment. That he was afraid the right hon. Gentleman would find a formidable obstacle in the way of his amalgamation scheme. He hoped,

he might add, that the right hon. Gentleman would consider whether he could not, if not in this, at all events in next year's Estimates, make some provision with a view to giving either pensions or gratuities to old Militia sergeants, so as to admit of their leaving a service of which they were tired, and the conditions of which were different from what they had been led to suppose. As to the adjutants of Militia, they suffered, in truth, not only from a lack of adequate retiring pensions, but from a grievance which, although it might be called sentimental, was still really felt by them-he meant the not being able to rise in their own regiments. He should like to know whether there was any good reason why that grievance should be continued? He should further wish to know from the right hon. Gentleman when the depôt centres and the amalgamation of the head-quarters would probably be completed?

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN said, he wished to know whether the rumour that the appointment of subaltern officers in the Militia was to be left in the hands of the Lords Lieutenant of counties was correct?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he could not vote for the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hackney, and regretted the depreciatory tone which the discussion had assumed, so far as the Militia were concerned. He was desirous of seeing full justice done to that Force; and if they were at all open to any of the criticisms which had been passed upon them, it was not, he thought, so much on account of any faults of their own as because of the conditions under which they were brought into service. The selection of the regiments for the Autumn Manœuvres last year was not, perhaps, very judicious; but he should be sorry to hear that it was not intended to allow any Militia regiments to take part in the Manœuvres this year. As to the sum to be laid out on the building of barracks, he did not think the money could be better expended; one of the most valuable of the changes proposed by his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War being, in his opinion, the abolition of billeting; but how, he should like to know, could billeting be done away with unless proper accommodation were provided for the Militia regiments? One of the main objects of his right hon. Friend's plans this year was, he believed, to improve the efficiency of the Militia, and the depôt centres would no doubt afford them the advantage of being brought into contact with other troops. Many months had passed away since the right hon. Gentleman opposite had brought forward his plans of Army reform; but with respect to any details of the plans the House was pretty much where it was. He hoped, therefore, that the Minister for War would give them some further information respecting them. It would also be desirable if the House knew more about the localities of the depôt centres. The only object he had in putting these questions was the improvement of the efficiency of the Militia, and that was, he was sure, the great object at which his right hon. Friend opposite also aimed. With regard to raising the money required for building these barracks, the House ought to be told whether the Government intended to proceed by Bill.

MR. CARDWELL said, that the right hon. Gentleman (Sir John Pakington) was justified in saying that great injustice was done in impugning the efficiency of the Militia; and he had done him (Mr. Cardwell) no more than justice in stating that his chief object was to improve its well-doing. Last year the authorities were guided in the selection of the particular regiments to go to the Military Manœuvres by the lateness of the harvest, and it was feared that labour in the agricultural counties might have been interfered with if agricultural regiments were selected. With regard to the depôt centres, it was very desirable to make good speed with the plan relating to them. As a great many localities were desirous of pressing their opinions on the Government for consideration, it was thought necessary, for the success of the scheme, that they should not be shut out from the opportunity of expressing their views, and, accordingly, the Government gave them till the 1st of June to send in their observations, and immediately afterwards the Committee on the subject assembled to consider them. Though it was the opinion of the Chairman of the Committee that the questions remaining to be settled were not numerous or difficult in comparison with the greatness and complexity of the scheme, yet the questions Sir John Pakington

had all to be considered in connection with each other; and, consequently, the Committee had not yet made their second Report; but he trusted that no delay would be occasioned by that circumstance, because the arrangement could not be carried into effect until the final Parliamentary sanction was given by Bill. In fact, he trusted that the passing of the Bill and the presentation of the Report would occur about the same time. With regard to guns he had to state that lieutenant colonels of the Royal Artillery had been sent to Shoeburyness for special training in the course of the winter. They had reported on the wants of their districts, and with some colonels of Militia they had lately consulted with the Artillery authorities as to replacing the old smooth-bore guns by rifled guns. As soon as the Committee reported on the subject, no time would be lost in carrying out the requisite arrangements. The hon. and gallant Member for North Lancashire (Mr. F. Stanley) had asked a question relating to the Staff and the adjutants of the Militia, and if he (Mr. Cardwell) were clearly understood as guarding himself against making any pledge as to demands upon the public purse, he might say that it was intended immediately to review the position of the whole Staff of the Militia, with a view of making it as effective as possible. In future, they would not have superannuated persons who regarded their pay as a pension, but both adjutants and the permanent Staff would be associated with the Regular Army. With regard to the Question of the hon. Member for King's County (Sir Patrick O'Brien), as to whether the appointment to first commissions was to remain with the Lords Lieutenant of counties, he had to reply that there was a provision to that effect in the Act of Parliament, and in his opinion it was a salutary provision. With regard to promotion the case was different. That would be in the hands of the military authorities, and particularly of the officers commanding the centre and district. Without saying that the military authorities were satisfied altogether with the appearance of some of the Militia regiments at the Military Manœuvres last year, he did not think that any good was gained by making sharp comments on the subject. The House had before it the very fair and candid statement of His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, and by that statement he was prepared to abide, and he regretted that any observations should have been made going beyond His Royal Highness's Report. As to absentees, they were, of course, deserters; but the whole object of the arrangements now making was to put an end to anything unsatisfactory in the state of the Militia, and to increase its efficiency in future. With regard to the Militia Reserve, the Government were, of course, limited by the Vote of the House to the number of 30,000 men. He agreed in thinking that it might be a subject for consideration whether the number should not be further increased. According, however, to the last Return which he had received, the Militia Reserve amounted

to 29,836, being only 164 deficient of the whole number of 30,000. With regard to barracks, it was not intended, as appeared to be supposed, to build barracks by wholesale. Billeting was to be got rid of by putting the men into such barracks as were available, and the remainder would be encamped on the adjacent 20 acres of ground surrounding the depôt centre. The present Motion of the hon. Member for Hackney was only a repetition of one he made earlier in the Session, when he obtained but a small body of supporters. The hon. Member seemed to stand almost alone in his attack on the Militia Force. His hon. Friend the Member for Hackney said that all military authorities had spoken in disparagement of the Militia; but who were they? The Duke of Wellington would surely be allowed to be some authority on such a subject, and he had spoken in the highest terms of the Force, which had contributed so largely to his success in the Peninsula, and which formed no small part of the force with which he won the Battle of Waterloo. What did he say on this subject? In the House of Lords on the 15th of June, 1852, the Duke of Wellington said

"What I desire-and I believe it is a desire the most moderate that can be formed-is, that you shall give us, in the first instance, the old constitutional peace establishment.

In

the last war I had great experience of the value of several regiments of English Militia, and I can assure your Lordships that they were in as high a state of discipline, and as fit for service as any men I ever saw in my life." - [3 Hansard, cxxii. 730.]

Did the noble Duke expect that the Bill

in favour of which he was speaking would at once produce such a Force? He was too wise a man to entertain that expectation. He said

"No doubt, if you begin with the formation of Militia corps under this Act of Parliament, they will in time become what their predecessors in the Militia were; and if ever they do become what the former Militia were, you may rely on it they will perform all the services they may be required to perform. It may not be, at first, or for some time, everything we could desire, but by degrees it will become what you want-an efficient auxiliary force to the regular Army."[Ibid. 731.]

What said General Sir John Burgoyne on the subject? His third proposition

was

"That the main basis of a Reserve in this

country must be the Militia, and every effort should be made to improve the quality of this service as much as possible, and to arrange, by pre-engagement of the men, for the means of rapidly transferring a certain number of them into the Line in times of emergency."

Now, that was precisely what they were now doing. In addition to the authorities he had then given, on a former occasion he had quoted from Lord Seaton on the same subject. He therefore altogether demurred to the opinion of his hon. Friend that all military authorities agreed in the disparagement of the Militia. It was quite true that they could not have in a short time a force as efficient as the Regular Army; but they could have a popular Force at a very small expense, and capable of becoming very effective if the time of emergency should arrive. His hon. Friend asked, if they had got a Reserve of 110,000 men already established, what was the use of the Militia? But they had not got that Reserve already established; nor could it be till the six years' men had passed out of the service. Then, it was said that recruiting had fallen off; but that was, far as the Militia was concerned, an entire mistake. Besides, there could be no doubt that men would recruit for the Militia who would not recruit for the Line; in fact, many took the Militia as their yearly holiday, looking to the additional pay and the association. It was quite a different thing to recruiting for the Army, where the men knew that they might at any moment be ordered off to India or the colonies. His hon. Friend said he understood that the Artillery were 1,000 men short. That was not so. He believed the Artillery at this

SO

moment were not 300 short. Indeed, notwithstanding the large demand for the labour market, the point they had fixed had very nearly been reached. He admitted, however, that it was more easy to get drivers than gunners, because to move the great weights now required, gunners must be men of exceptional strength. In conclusion, he must energetically deny that he had in any way altered his views upon the subject of localization; and he hoped he had not occupied longer time than was necessary to answer the various questions which had been put to him; but the House having been so unanimous in maintaining the Militia on a former occasion, he hoped his hon. Friend would be satisfied with the discussion which had arisen, and would not press his Motion to a division.

LORD ELCHO said, he wished to say one word as to the Staff of the Militia. It had been suggested that the Staff of the Militia might be used for the Volunteers, or the Staff of the Volunteers for the Militia. He hoped no such amalgamation would be attempted by the Government. The class of men required were quite different, and when they were not actually on duty, they were generally engaged in shooting matches or something of that sort, which tended to improve them; and he felt convinced if any attempt of that kind were made it would signally fail. With regard to recruiting for the Artillery, he wished to know if it was not the fact that by inviting the Line to volunteer for the Artillery the stamina of the Line had been diminished? His right hon. Friend (Mr. Cardwell) had stated that, instead of the Artillery being 1,000 short, they were only 300 short, but the numbers might have been supplied from the Line. He admitted the attention and ability which his hon. Friend the Member for Hackney had given to the subject, but his present Motion was little more than a rechauffe of the debate on the Army Estimates. He (Lord Elcho) by no means thought with his right hon. Friend (Sir John Pakington) that the effect of this discussion would be to depreciate the Militia. He hoped that the cases where regiments had been found fault with for want of smartness in dress and accoutrements would be looked to, and that recruits would, if possible, be drilled for six months; and whatever might be Mr. Cardwell

said as to others, he must bear his testimony to the efficiency of the regiments - he believed they were the Edmonton Rifles which were commanded by his noble Friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Lord Enfield).

MR. CARDWELL said, it had been arranged that every regiment that joined in the Manœuvres should previously have a month's training.

MAJOR GENERAL SIR PERCY HERBERT asked, whether regiments which had not had a month's training would attend the Manœuvres?

MR. MITCHELL HENRY complained that the new regulations dealt unfairly towards the Militia surgeons. One of the grievances of those regulations was that, while they imposed additional duties upon them, they deprived them of the principal source of their income - the fees for the examination of recruits.

MR. HOLMS, in replying, said, his remarks about the inefficiency of the Militia at the Autumn Mancœuvres were not dictated by any want of respect for that body. Their inefficiency was owing to the short training they had received, for all military authorities concurred in the fact that they could not make good soldiers out of any men who had only 28 days' training in the course of a year. As to Militia having been employed in the Peninsular War, it should be remembered that that war lasted for years, we had in those days, therefore, ample time to train men to fill up vacancies. These men, be it remembered, had to contend with men like themselves, not such as compose the European Armies of to-day. As to Militia employed in the Crimean War, the fact was that 61,000 Militia were called out in 1855, and of those 19,000 volunteered in one month to go to the Crimea. That fact he considered to be an additional argument in his favour, for he contended that those 19,000 men would have gone into the Regular Army if there had been no Militia. Inducements ought not to be held out to men to go into the Militia whom it was desirable to bring into the Regular Army. No hon. Member had said in this debate that the Militia was perfect as it was, and not one had said what time would be required to make a Militiaman a good soldier. The battle of Sadowa was only six years old, and after that and the ex

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