interest under "The Harbours and Pass- | for a subsequent day, thereby affording ing Tolls Act, 1861?" MR. GLADSTONE said, that the first instalment of the loan of £20,000 had been paid. He believed the loan had been anticipated by the trustees on the faith of a promise contained in documents which were on the Table of the House, and in conformity with such promise, the rate of interest had been reduced, and the period of repayment ex an opportunity for discussion, the Bill was at once read a third time and sent up to the House of Lords; so that there was now no further opportunity of considering it. He was speaking more in sorrow than in anger, but the same course had been taken with another of the same class of Bills, in which his right hon. Friend took a special interest - the Act of Uniformity Amendment Bill tended. But the hon. Gentleman was-which was galloped rapidly through mistaken if he supposed that something this House. He then asked for time to had been done in the case of the Arbroath | consider it; but his right hon. Friend Harbour Loan which had not been done in other cases. It was done in the case of the Tyne Improvements, in which a sum of £200,000 had been granted to the Tyne Improvement Commissioners. The policy pursued by the Government was in accordance with a decision which had been announced in the House, that every encouragement should be given by loans for the creation of commercial harbours in every case where these harbours would be of any utility in respect of refuge, even though they might not, strictly speaking, be harbours of refuge. The Treasury did not interfere with the judgment of the Public Loan Commissioners, but exercised on its own responsibility, the powers it possessed of reducing the interest on the loan and extending the time of repayment. PARLIAMENT-CONDUCT OF BUSINESS - BISHOPS RESIGNATION ACT (1869) PERPETUATION BILL. OBSERVATIONS. MR. BOUVERIE said, he wished to remonstrate with his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government as to the conduct of Business on Friday upon an important measure the Bishops Resignation Bill. That Bill stood for Committee on Thursday, and was then materially altered, being made a temporary instead of a permanent measure, the Bill becoming thus open to a large class of objections which the House ought to have had an opportunity of stating and discussing. The Bill was put down for a Morning Sitting on Friday for consideration on the Report, and came on just before the Adjournment, at 10 minutes to 7, in the time usually devoted to unopposed Business. The Report was considered; but, instead of putting down the third reading stood firmly on the forms of the House, and he (Mr. Bouverie) did not then complain, because the forms of the House justified the course then taken. On this occasion, however, his right hon. Friend had overruled the forms of the House to smuggle the Bill through an important stage. He (Mr. Bouverie) came down to the House on Friday night in due time, as he supposed, to give Notice of an Amendment upon the third reading of the Bishops Resignation Bill, but, to his extreme astonishment, he found that the two stages had been taken together, and that he should have no opportunity of discussing it. With regard to unimportant measures which excited no controversy. the practice had lately been to take the third reading at the same time with the consideration of Amendments on the Report, but he was not aware that this course had been followed upon any Bill which had excited opposition. He hardly thought his right hon. Friend would have taken what he might almost call so audacious a step if he had known there was a bond fide opposition to the third reading; and he should like to have an assurance that the same course would not again be followed with regard to important measures, because the result must be to delay instead of advance the Business of the House. MR. GLADSTONE said, his right hon. Friend might have intended to speak with mildness, but had been unable to refrain from hard words, for he thought it was rather a hard word to apply to Ministers to accuse them of smuggling a Bill through two important stages at once; but as he wished to give his right hon. Friend every satisfaction, he would take no further notice of the expression. The Bill had been made temporary, because being of an experimental character, it was thought wise that it should again be brought under the notice of the House before taking its place permanently on the statute book; and he was extremely sorry for what had happened, not having had the smallest conception that any Member wished to raise further objection. One question had been raised respecting the duration of the Bill; he was able to meet that wish and convert the Bill into a temporary measure; no notice of Amendments had been given; and nothing had been stated at previous stages of the Bill by his right hon. Friend, his hon. Friend (Mr. Kinnaird), or any other hon. Member, which conveyed to his mind that there would be opposition to any future stage. When the Bill was reported, he either asked, or it was signified to him, that it might be read a third time; and it was certainly convenient to remove from the Orders Bills as to which the Business was really over. He would see whether, if his right hon. Friend desired to raise any question upon the Bill, his views might not be met by dropping the Bill as it stood and introducing it in the Continuance Bill at the end of the Session. MR. KINNAIRD said, he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bouverie) had brought under the notice of the House the way in which the Bill had been passed. MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock has addressed the House on a point of Order, and has received an explanation from the First Lord of the Treasury, with regard to the proceedings on the Bill adverted to. Further discussion upon the merits of the Bill itself, or upon the debates in this House regarding it, will now be irregular. MR. KINNAIRD, in explanation, said, he only wished to say that he had himself expressed to the First Lord of the Treasury his hope that there would be another opportunity of discussing the measure. MR. GLADSTONE said, that no such words as those mentioned by his hon. Friend had reached his ears. SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY-considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) (1.) £45,300, Divine Service. (2.) £26,400, Martial Law. SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN wished to know whether the office of Judge Advocate General had been abolished; and, if not, what salary was attached to it, as the item in the Estimates was for £1,000? MR. CARDWELL said, the question of filling up the permanent office of Judge Advocate General was being re considered. The salary attached to the temporary office was £500 a-year. Vote agreed to. (3.) £247,700, Medical Establishments, &c. DR. BREWER wished to know what steps had been taken for introducing an improved system of dentistry into the medical service of the Army? MR. CARDWELL said, that all Army surgeons were required to have some knowledge of dentistry; but it would be very undesirable to draw away their attention from other matters in order to devote their minds to the study of dentistry. MAJOR ABBUTHNOT asked if any means had been taken to improve the flow of promotion in the medical service? Great disheartenment had been caused to many of the junior Army surgeons from the slow rate at which promotion went on. MR. CARDWELL said, that, no doubt the large additions made to the Army Medical Department after the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny, much retarded promotion; but he might say that the whole subject was under the consideration of the War Office, with a view to see what it was most right to do in the matter, with a due regard to all existing interests. Vote agreed to. (4.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £963,300, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Militia Pay and Allowances, which will come 1872 to the 31st day of March 1873, inclusive." MR. BOUVERIE said, he was perfectly satisfied with the full and frank in course of payment from the 1st day of April assurance of his right hon. Friend, and must declare that he did not intend to use the words the right hon. Gentleman had mentioned in an offensive sense. Mr. Gladstone MR. HOLMS said, he must protest againt the Vote being proceeded with, as well as that for Public Buildings, until the question of raising the £3,500,000 | pretty clear that we could not maintain which would be required for the Military Forces Localization Bill had been discussed. If, however, the Government would not assent to withdraw the Vote altogether, he should like to see a reduction made to the extent of 5,000 men; for, before those additional 5,000 men were voted, it would be well to see of what practical use their services were likely to be to us in the event of invasion. He had put questions to military men, from the highest to the lowest rank, on that point. He had asked them ---"Suppose an enemy were to land on our shores, would you send the Militia to face them?" The reply was-"Certainly not." "Would you do so as a dernier ressort ?” All said "No." "Would you brigade them with the Regulars?" On that point a writer in Blackwood, who in his opinion displayed great judgment, said "When you mix in the same brigade regiments in a totally different state of drill and discipline, the consequence is inefficiency, and you commit an act of injustice to both. If you chain a man and a child together, you will diminish the efficiency of each in his own sphere." in this country a Militia Force and compel them to go out for drill for three or six months. It was contended that we had been complimented by foreign officers on the way in which the Autumn Manœuvres had been gone through. Those foreign generals, however, only complimented the troops engaged in those Manœuvres in a modified form, for, while admitting the excellence of the Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery, they added that this country ought not to trust to the Militia. As the Militia Force was composed of men from 16 to 35 years of age, the maintenance of that force was detrimental in this respect, that it kept those men from joining the Regular Army. It had also been recently observed by the hon. Member for Norfolk that a Militiaman who had a wife and family left them chargeable to the parish on undertaking his duties in the Militia, and the family almost invariably received outdoor relief. Consequently, there would naturally be felt no desire on the part of that class of the population to enter the Army at all. He believed that recruiting for the Army was at the present time The brigading together of the Militia almost at a stand still, and that we were and the Regular Troops was then clearly still short of 1,000 gunners for the Arnot to be thought of. He would there- tillery. The proposal of the Government fore ask the House to pause before to raise the number of men for the Mithey voted 5,000 additional men for the litia to 139,000 was a mistaken policy, Militia. His Royal Highness Com- as it was withdrawing those men who manding-in-Chief, in making his Report would otherwise fill up the vacancies in on the Autumn Manœuvres last year, the Line. Switzerland, which had hitherstated that considerable changes and to in reality depended for its defence upon modifications were, in his opinion, de- a Militia, had departed from that system, sirable in the case of the Militia, and and desired now to have a regular and that it was impossible, unless they were standing Army. They would shortly be kept out for more than a month at a time, asked to vote £3,500,000 to carry out the that they could be properly drilled; scheme of Army organization proposed and at the same time His Royal High- by the Government, which, although reness stated that it was impossible and ceived at first with something like apundesirable to sever the men from their proval, had become less and less liked by civil occupations. Practically, then, the the public the more it had been disForce was thought to be valueless, cussed. The reason why that scheme had without certain changes which it was not improved upon acquaintance was, found impossible to carry into effect. that, like many other things in this world, There had been a set of questions it had hardly carried out that which it sent out to the officers of Militia regi- professed. It proposed at first to give ments in March, 1870, and they were localization to our troops, to bring the asked whether if recruits were drilled Reserves in close connection with the for three or six months after their Regular Army, and to do away with enrolment, it would have an injurious billeting. But what had become of effect on recruiting for the Militia. the localization of the troops? Why, Seventy-eight commanding officers re- they were now told that the word "localiplied that it would; 68 answered "No;" ❘zation" was not to be understood in its and 10 said it was doubtful. It was then ordinary sense in this case. They were COLONEL CORBETT said, that he could not concur in the remarks of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hackney as to the inutility of the Militia; and he thought it ridiculous to suppose that troops drilled so short a time as they were could be efficient, or able to take their place in line of battle. But that did not necessarily detract from the utility of the Force. He hoped more time would be given for drilling the men when first enrolled, for it was of the utmost importance to have them thoroughly grounded in the rudiments of drill. He hoped the necessary steps, therefore, would be taken without delay to get possession of the land for depôt centres, for mas, operations could not be commenced before Lady Day, 1874. He altogether denied that the Militia interfered with the recruiting for the Army; from many years' experience he could say the very reverse was the fact. to have under 300 men, one-half of] them new recruits, at particular localities, from which when they were ready, they would be drafted to their own regiment; but that was not the localization the country expected. Neither had the Government given those combinations which were anticipated to result in permanent corps d'armée; while as regarded the Reserve Force being in systematic connection with the Army there was nothing of the kind to be found in the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) recently hailed with delight the announcement that billeting was to be abolished, but he forgot that it was proposed to expend £255,680 in the erec-if notice were not given before Michaeltion of barracks for the Militia. Taking the estimate of those acquainted with infirmaries, each bed cost £70, which would only represent about 3,600 extra beds. That would only be the beginning of a much-increased expenditure, for the counties where depôt centres were not proposed to be established, would naturally wish to be as well off as their neighbours in respect of this accommodation. He would therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman if he were really determined to have a system of short service and a large Reserve; for if so there could be no necessity for going on with these buildings? At present there was barrack accommodation for 137,000 soldiers, and the new barracks would be equal to providing for 17,000 or 18,000 more. Now he submitted that with a large Reserve there was no occasion for erecting more barracks, for if they allowed a large number of soldiers to go into the Reserve, their barrack accommodation would be more than sufficient. In that case, he should like to know whether the Government really intended to go on increasing their Reserve Force. If so, why should they ask for an increase in the Militia? He would now only move that the Vote be reduced by £8,043, being the pay for 5,000 privates; the other points he had raised would follow the decision come to on that Motion. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £955,257, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Militia Pay and Allowances, which will come in course of payment from the 1st day of April 1872 to the 31st day of March 1873, inclusive." -Mr. Holms.) Mr. Holms COLONEL LOYD LINDSAY said, the deprecatory remarks made by the foreign officers who attended the Autumn Manoeuvres had reference to the metropolitan, and not to the provincial Militia, and there was a great difference between the two as to the conditions under which each was drawn from the population of the country. In each county the adjutant had the most stringent instructions to acquaint himself with each man's place of abode and character; and if a man changed his residence he was transferred from the regiment of one county to that of another; but the men who formed the metropolitan corps were drawn from a floating population of many hundred thousands; and in the metropolis it was impossible to carry out any such instructions, the men being here to-day and away, no one knew where, to-morrow. Personally, he felt the greatest pain at what he saw of the metropolitan corps at the Autumn Manoeuvres. The division to which he was attached, the 2nd, contained three metropolitan regiments, the 1st and 2nd Tower Hamlets and the 3rd Surrey. the case of the 1st Tower Hamlets, the enrolled strength was 795, and the parade state 265; in that of the 2nd, the enrolled strength was 896, and the parade state 570; and in the 3rd Surrey, the enrolled strength was 803, and the parade state 526. In the three regiments, therefore, there was an enrolled In strength of 2,494, and a parade state of 1,361; so that 1,133, or nearly onehalf of the force was not available for service. From a Paper upon the training of the Militia which had been issued by the Secretary of State for War, it appeared that in the case of the 2nd Tower Hamlets Militia, 308 were absent from training, and of that number 191 were absent without leave. Now, on any particular day a man might be absent by accident; but to be absent from a whole training was nothing less than desertion. The 3rd Middlesex had 333 men absent without leave. Throughout the whole Militia, 8,144 out of 84,738, or 10 per cent, were absent without leave. Of course, it was well known that a Militiaman cost £10, while a Volunteer cost £2; and while he thought the services of the county Militia well worth having, he could not apply the same remark to the metropolitan corps, which were composed of men upon whom we could not rely. It was equally well known that at the Autumn Manœuvres the goods and chattels of contiguous regiments had to be closely watched; and on one occasion an officer of the Guards had to bring up his regiment to get a metropolitan regiment into a state of discipline, the name of which he would tell the right hon. Gentleman privately, if he desired it. He mentioned that because it affected a question of principle-whether we should continue to draw Militia from the metropolitan districts. The Duke of Cambridge, in his Report, said the physique of the men left much to be desired; that most of them were young-mere boys-requiring much care and attention to bring them to maturity as regards strength and general stamina, and, consequently, hardly equal to severe exertions; and it must be remembered that he saw the picked men of the corps, when half the men had been weeded out by the commanding officers because of their physical unfitness for service. COLONEL GILPIN said, he thought that was neither the time, nor had he any inclination to discuss the merits of the principles on which the Militia was established; and although he was no party to the new scheme of the Secretary of State for War, yet, as it had been passed by Parliament and received by the country, he would do all he could to carry it out. One might suppose from what was said that the Militia had never served the country except at the Autumn Manœuvres; but it must be remembered that the Militia had borne their part in the history of the country. In 1852, when the Militia Bill was before the other House, the Duke of Wellington spoke very highly of the services of the Militia in the Peninsula, and more especially of the Militia regiments that fought at Waterloo. During the Crimean War, too, the Militia furnished us with 32,000 men to garrison the Mediterranean fortresses, and thus took the place of those that were called into active service; and such was the difference between training for 21 days and training when embodied for service, that the Militia at Aldershot or Gibraltar could not have been distinguished from the Regulars except by the colour of their lace. He believed, however, with the hon. Member for Hackney, that it was a mistake to send the Militia to the Autumn Manœuvres, for it was impossible for them, ill-equipped and short of officers, short also of non-commissioned officers as they were, to compete with the Line. With regard to the recruiting, it could not be expected that much could be done in that way during hay and harvest time; but he might state that in his district there had been three or four times as many applications to enter the Militia Reserve as the Secretary of State required. He believed that there were 30,000 men ready for duty, if their services were required; and now, by a recent Order, men of one year's service were encouraged to enter the Line, although it favoured something of the principle of robbing Peter to pay Paul. He regretted to hear that the Militia, at the last Autumn Manœuvres, had not kept up that high character which they had done when their services were required; but it could not be expected that men should become soldiers by instinct; they required longer training to make them more efficient. He was quite satisfied that, if the Militia only had fair play, and the opportunity of gaining experience, they would not disgrace the uniform they wore. COLONEL RUGGLES-BRISE said, he was afraid from the observations which had fallen from the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Holms) with respect to to the Militia, that he derived his knowledge of the Force from Hackney alone, |