Q. How much was it before that? A. I should say about $7,000; one year it was $5,000.

Q. And all those years, down to 1874, he had received a-half per cent of the surplus? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Or one-fifth of the per centage commission that you received? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you, at any time since your organization, had more than one assistant vice-president? A. No, sir.

Q. You became president, when? A. In 1874, I think.

Q. Now, were there any other officers of the company who have received, at any time since its organization, any compensation depending upon a per centage? A. The only other person that has been the actuary.

Q. When the actuary began, in 1859, how much was his annual compensation? A. $1,200.

Q. And any per centage compensation in addition? A. I cannot say exactly the time that his per centage began, but I think about the time the vice-president's began.

Q. That was in 1864? A. In 1867; I should say about 1867 or 1868.

Q. Then up to about 1867 or 1868 he had received no per centage compensation according to your recollection? A. I should say not. Q. About what was his annual salary, from 1859 down to 1867? A. I should say $10,000 or $12,000; I am not absolutely certain. Q. Then in 1867, or about that time, the annual compensation of the actuary was $10,000; that he received absolutely? A. I should say so approximately.

Q. And about that time you began, in addition, to pay him a compensation depending upon a per centage? A. Yes, sir.

Q. From 1867 to 1874, did his annual salary continue the same, at $10,000? A. My impression is, it did, sir.

Q. From 1867 down to 1874 what per centage did he receive? A. A-half of one per cent.

sir.

Q. That was the same as the assistant vice-president? A. Yes,

Q. One-fifth of what you received? A. Yes; the same thing; the salaries of the actuary and of the vice-president were about a balance, about the same thing.

Q. In 1867, when the actual extra compensation or per centage compensation began, was he paid a eum for back years in the aggregate, or only for one year? A. It commenced flush with the year. Q. He was allowed no back compensation as you know? A. No, sir.

Q. His arrangement continued down to the close of 1874? A. Down to the close of 1873.

Q. Since that you have received the compensation which you have stated here to wit, $20,000 a year? A. Yes.

Q. Have any of the officers stated, in the list you have produced, received, directly or indirectly, for any alleged services in any direction whatever, any sum of money which belonged to the com

pany except what you have stated-since 1873? A. Not one dollar.

Q. Has any member of the family, or either of them, received any money whatever from the company, except what you have stated as having been received by your father in connection with the Boston establishment? A. No, sir.

Q. I think you have stated that you have no connection with any other company, except in the way you have spoken of, in regard to this Boston company? A. No, sir.

Q. Has the vice-president had any connection, directly or indirectly, with any other company, corporation or organization, either as agent, officer, director, or in any other capacity? A. No, sir. Q. At any time since 1867? A. No, sir.

Q. Or the actuary? A. No, sir.

Q. Or any of the officers? A. No, sir; we have had just as much as we could do to attend to our own business.

Q. Well, that does not quite answer my question? A. Then, I will answer it in this way, no; not in any way, shape or manner.

By Mr. MOODY :

Q. Has your company reinsured the risks of any other companies? A. I think about fourteen or fifteen years ago we reinsured the Baltimore Life Insurance Company, a very good little company. Q. That, you say, was about how long ago? A. I should think about sixteen years ago.

Q. How much was the aggregate amount you reinsured then? A. It was a little mite of a thing.

Q. You would call a small company what we might call a large one? A. It was a very small company.

Q. Well, give us, as near as you can, about the amount you reinsured them? A. I should not think they had a risk of more than a million and a half, at a rough guess.

Q. Do you think your company reinsured about that amount for them? A. I should think so.

Q. What was the name of the company? A. You could find out what it was by calling at the Baltimore Life Insurance Company. Q. Were the officers of your company allowed a per centage on the reinsurance? A. No, sir.

Q. None whatever? A. No, sir.

Q. Did any one connected with the company receive any compensation whatever, either directly or indirettly, for any services, or the alleged services, growing out of the reinsurance? A. Not one dollar. Q. You spoke of another reinsurance; what was that? A. It was a small company in Montgomery, Alabama; it amounted, in reality, to the transferring of a little company, through the president and directors, into a good agency; that is what it amounted to, and it was a very small company.

Q. About what was the amount of the reinsurance on that? A. I should not think it was larger than the other.

Q. About the same amount? A. I should think so.

Q. Did you, or any one connected with the company, receive any compensation, either directly or indirectly, for that reinsurance? A. Not one dollar.

Q. Has your company made any other reinsurance since its existence, with the exception of those you have spoken of? A. No, sir. Q. Has it not made any of late years? A. No, sir.

By Mr. WEIANT :

Q. Won't you state the manner in which this arrangement was brought about? A. Well, sir, the reason the larger companies have given up the business of reinsurance have been

Q. No; I want to get at the manner in which you reinsure them? A. The way we did was to take the liabilities of the company, and see what would have to be the sum they would have to pay us.

Q. You did do that? A. Yes; we did take the liabilities of the company, and did calculate how much money should be paid to us, which, in addition to the premium received, and a liberal margiu according to the laws of the State of New York, valuing at four and a half per cent, would make us whole, and enable us to do a good thing for our policyholders; so that it would approximate with the ordinary business we should do across our counter.

Q. Had the consent of the policyholders any thing to do with the reinsurance? A. I have had frequent opportunities of knowing both these cases, that it was at the desire and instigation of the policyholders.

By Mr. MOAK:

Q. You mean of the policyholders of the company you reinsured? A. Yes, sir; and they were very glad to come.

Q. You are able to state that they consented, are you? A. We never heard a remonstrance, and so far as we could learn they were very glad of it.

Q. You infer that, then? A. I inferred that from the unanimity in which it was done, and they were well pleased and satisfied; we never had a complaint from them.

Q. Did your company make any agreement with that company in reference to the matter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. The case was talked of and considered in your board of directors and trustees? A. In our board of trustees, it was.

Q. And also in the other case? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And a written contract was made? A. I presume so; it is so long ago that I can scarcely recollect; it is twelve or fifteen years ago; I know the things were all done with great formality, and I know we received our full price for the thing, and it was a great satisfaction for the policyholders of the company and ourselves.

Q. You did not see many of the policyholders? A. Yes; a good many of them.

Q. Did you treat with them in making the contract? A. We met a good many of them in business.

Q. Did they take any part in making the contract? A. I should say they did; I think we were waited upon by a committee of the policyholders.

Q. Have you a written contract of those companies? A. I really could not say; I can't say in regard to the contract, as it is so long ago.

Q. You can't say whether you have the contract or not? A. No; I can't say whether we have or not.

Q. Or whether it could be produced here or not? A. No; I can't say any thing about it.

Q. Here is an item of salary which reads: "In commutation of constructing engineers' per centages on buildings, $15,000; will you explain that? A. We found, sir, that in the employment of an architect it was wise to employ one to draw the plans merely, and to employ a gentleman who was an expert builder.

Q. You are now speaking of the building your company put up in Broadway, known as the Equitable building? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, your company determined to put up a building? A. Yes, sir; and we gave this person a salary, in commutation of the ordinary commissions, thinking it would be better for the company than to pay the ordinary commissions paid for such services.

Q. Is that building the only real estate the title to which is in your company? A. Well, the title of our company consists in and we hold, in addition to the new Equitable building, numbers 112 and 114 Broadway, a little building we bought from the bank.

Q. Then you do own other real estate? A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did your company determine to erect the building known as the Equitable building? A. Well, about 1867 we came near having all our documents destroyed by fire; in fact, we have lost many documents by a fire that took place in our old office, and I made up my mind we would have a fire-proof building; we suffered a great deal of confusion and annoyance in consequence of that fire, and I bestirred myself to have a fire-proof building.

Q. About when did your company determine to erect that building? A. In 1867.

Q. Did the company purchase the land on which the building stands for the purpose of erecting it? A. It did.

Q. What was the expense of the real estate on which it is erected? A. Of the land?

Q. Yes; of the real estate I was speaking of, as you purchased it? A. I could hardly, with accuracy, give an answer to that question. Q. You can get pretty near to it, can't you; I don't want you to give the actual figures? A. I should say about seven or eight hundred thousand dollars; it was bought of five different parties.

Q. What I want to get at is the amount paid in round numbers; then you determined upon the real estate to erect a building, and when I say you, of course, I mean your company? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the plans were prepared, under arrangement, for its erection? A. Yes, sir.

Q. About how much was paid for the preparation of the plans?

A. I think we had a-half a dozen architects who were given, perhaps, three or four hundred dollars, each of them, to draw a plan.

Q. Give, as near as you can, about the aggregate paid for the plans? A. I say, I think we had paid a-half a dozen architects, and each of them drew a plan, and were paid three or four hundred dollars each.

Q. Then from two thousand to twenty-four hundred dollars it cost yon? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then it was determined to erect a building upon the plan of one architect? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then you paid him a per centage upon the cost of the building? A. We paid him a per centage on the cost of the building for drawing all the necessary life-sized plans; then the compensation was fixed of the gentleman who is paid that salary; he occupied the position known in England as clerk of the work; he attended to all the business details.

Q. He was the superintendent, wasn't he? A. Yes, he is the superintendent; he is generally with the architect a unit; but in this instance we separated them and paid him a salary so that his interests should not be against us in making the contracts and purchases; if you pay him a commission the contracts, as a general thing, will be large.

Q. You paid him, how much per cent? A. We did not pay him. any per cent; we paid him so much a year and he attended the construction of the work.

Q. How much did you pay him? A. Fifteen thousand dollars a

year.

Q. For how long? A. For two years.

Q. Did you pay the architect any thing in per centage? A. I should say about two and one-half per cent.

Q. Upon the actual cost? A. No upon the estimate of cost which. was less than it actually cost.

Q. On about how much did you pay him that per centage? A. I could not tell you.

Q. Well, give as near as you can? A. Say from two to two and a-half millions on the New York building.

Q. This $15,000 is what; part of the commutation you say; explain that? A. It is part of the commutation of the commission that would naturally be paid to the superintendent.

Q. How much was paid to the superintendent in the aggregate from beginning to end? A. I think that run over a period of about two years.

Q. Fifteen thousand dollars a year? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then why does he receive compensation in 1876? A. Because the building was not complete until that time; indeed, we have just about got the building finished now; there are many things about the building that require attention; that salary was continued a year after the building was nominally finished, as we had a million and one things to attend to; he was worked harder than he was before as he was a practical engineer and we found his salary would be saved by paying it that year; it has since been cut down to $7,500.