again that our company resorts to every possible means to keep a policy alive.

Q. I want to get your idea whether a law could be framed, and if it would be better for the policyholder, which would provide against the forfeiting of policies? A. Yes, I think it could; I have drawn two or three laws myself; but I doubt if they have ever reached Albany.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. You prefer a paid-up policy very much to the Massachusetts plan? A. Yes; I think it is a great deal better.

By Mr. WEIANT :

Q. You stated that you understand the Massachusetts law to be that when the reserve is exhausted, unless the person dies within the time before it is exhausted, he forfeits every thing? A. That is my understanding of the law.

Q. If that be the law, could a company successfully conduct business by having an additional provision giving the party the right to renew the payment of his premiums before that was exhausted? A. I should think it might; yes, sir; but it is almost impossible to answer the question, unless I could go into a computation; the company must be made whole for the risk it assumes, and it is much easier to ask the question than to answer it; in order to answer it to your satisfaction, I would have to go into a computation of the amount of risks the company takes.

Q. I don't expect you to be strictly exact, because I know it involves a mathematical computation; could the companies of this State, in your belief, transact business successfully and issue paid-up policies as you suggest, if any thing was done that way? A. Yes, sir. Q. You think the business could be carried on successfully? A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the present rates of insurance? A. Yes; I think so.

Q. That would be an additional protection to the policyholders, would it not? A. Yes, sir; certainly; let me answer that you are striving in the Legislature to make some proper law for the protection of insurers; it seems to me that when a man has an ordinary policy upon which he is paying an annual premium, and he is overtaken by difficulty, and cannot pay his premium, the simplest possible way to dispose of the case is to give him a paid-up policy for what amount the company has put away on his account, charging him no more, and no less, than the price at which it advertises to the public to sell for cash; let me further say, as this committee is in search of information in regard to a bill, a suggestion I would give you is this: the suggestion made of giving a man his choice, may be attended with great evil; if a man is taken with inability to pay, there is another way by which you could tide over the trouble; you can take the amount of money he has contributed the company's reserve fund, but not his reserve, and make that the basis of a new policy, dividing it up into just as many premiums as you choose, and thus tide him

over for three or four years, and let him pay his premium in advance; it gives him a certain sum of money on his death, and if at the end of the time he can pay, and pays up his premium, there is a little addition to his policy, and by that means you tide him over.

Q. If he has taken a paid-up policy, that will not help him? A. If he has, there is the reserve on the paid-up policy, and that may be treated the same way as in the other case; it is a complex problem, and yet it may be so worked as to give justice to all concerned; let me suggest to you that you do not pass a bill unless you have called before you experts whose business it is to know every thing about it; I shall be very glad, at any time, to come up to Albany and meet the committee.

By Mr. MOAK:

Q. I think you said you became connected with the company in 1871? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were then employed by the company in what capacity? A. In my present capacity.

Q. As actuary? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was your salary fixed at?

A. It was then $12,500.

Q. And has it been increased since? A. Yes, sir; it was increased the following January to $15,000.

Q. And has remained so since? A. Remained so since.

Q. Are you a member of the board of directors? A. No, sir; I have nothing to do with them.

Q. You have no other connection with the company except as actuary? A. That is all, sir.

Q. Have you attended meetings of the board of trustees? A. I have only been called in to give information in regard to particular points, but not to attend the board.

Q. Have you been present at any of the meetings when the salaries of the officers were acted upon? A. Never.

Q. Do you know any thing about the fixing of the salaries, or the amounts thereof, except what you get from the books of the company or outside information? A. Nothing at all.

Q. You have no personal knowledge upon that subject? A. No personal knowledge upon that subject.

Q. Can you say of your personal knowledge whether any of those officers received more than the salary fixed? A. Not from my personal knowledge, I cannot.

Q. You can only speak for yourself? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you do not? A. I have never received one farthing beyond my pay; I believe that is the case with all.

Q. Do you have any thing to do with the medical department? A. No, sir.

Q. Are you consulted when risks are taken? A. Frequently.

Q. On what particular subject are you consulted when risks are taken? A. With respect to a person whose grandfather or grandmother, or aunt, or uncle, or some one else connected with the family who may have had consumption, what risk would be good for a cer

tain number of years, or a greater number of years, and what risk the company would run upon such a life.

Q. You are consulted upon the subject whether a person is a proper risk; is that so? A. Very seldom; it is only in cases of doubt, and very seldom then; not very frequently, because the rule of the company is to take no unsound life.

Q. Have you any personal knowledge, so far as you have been called upon in these cases, whether any inducement has been held out to the company to take the risks? A. I have not the least

knowledge of it.

Q. You have no knowledge of it? A. Not the least.

Q. In no case whatever? A. In no case whatever.

Q. Now, did you have any thing to do, or were you ever consulted with reference to the loaning of moneys? A. Never.

Q. Do you have any thing whatever to do it? A. Nothing whatever to do with it at all.

Q. You have no knowledge on the subject of making loans? A. No, sir.

Q. Nor inclination? A. Nor information whatever.

Q. Now, in reference to this document, has it been marked for identification; this is a report of the company in answer to a resolution of the Senate? A. Yes, sir; and it is addressed by the vicepresident to the chairman of this committee, explaining the cause why the information sought for was not submitted in time.

By Mr. WEIANT:

Q. Have you any knowledge as to the correctness of the statements contained in this paper? A. I have as much knowledge as I have on any subject that I did not do.

Q. Are you willing to state that you have knowledge of the correctness of every thing stated in the paper? A. I don't know what you mean by that.

Q. Have you read it through? A. I have read it through, and believe the statements are true.

Q. Can you state that the contents are true of your own knowledge? A. I have as much knowledge of that as of any thing, because I have consulted the books and the officers charged with the examination of the books.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. There are statements in there in regard to an examination pending at the time; you know whether that was so or not? A. Yes; I know that; but in regard to the other I would say that I have no actual knowledge.

By Mr. WEIANT:

Q. I want just an answer directly to the single question whether you have knowledge that the statements contained in this report are true? A. Well, I have as much knowledge of that as I have of any thing.

Q. That is not an answer to my question?

A. I don't know what the committee wish me to state; I want to be honest about this

matter.

Q. Don't you understand this matter? A. Yes; I am afraid I do; that is precisely my trouble; I believe that the statement is entirely true, and I would predicate any act of mine on it; but to assert that I know a thing is to go a great ways; very few of us know any thing, and a great many people know nothing.

Q. That is what I am afraid about these insurance affairs; I think that is the trouble; now I offer that question in good faith? A. I believe it to be entirely true from beginning to end, but to swear that I know it of my own knowledge to be true might involve considerations that don't now occur to me; I don't intend to be entrapped at all, nor do I intend to attribute to any one the disposition to entrap me.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. You mean to say you don't know, of your own knowledge, that all these statements are true? A. No; I don't know of my own knowledge.

Q. I suppose you do know, of your own knowledge, that there was an examination pending at that time? A. Yes; I know that.

By Mr. WEIANT:

Q. I would not, under any consideration, ask any question that might be deemed impertinent, or by which you might think I sought to entrap you; this is a subject upon which I have no knowledge or information, and that question was asked to get information upon certain subjects; I am asking the question in good faith, and have no desire to ask any thing improper? A. I don't attribute any motive of that sort, and would be very sorry to; I confess to you there would seem to be a doubt implied in the question as to whether I had the right to testify to any thing in a paper, simply because I did not happen to have absolute and perfect knowledge of the facts; that is a thing I don't pretend much to; I said that the paper is true; that is, I know it to be true as I know any thing, but to say I know it of my own knowledge, beyond all peradventure, is going too far.

Q. Now, I want to know whether you know this statement to be true of your own knowledge; that is a plain question? A. I don't think I can swear that I know it to be absolutely true.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. You know certain statements contained in it, as to an examination being pending by the department, are true? A. Yes; I know of my own knowledge that a great many things stated there are true, and infer the other things are true, simply because of my intercourse with the office, and seeing things there; I know we have been engaged in an examination, and I have been engaged in one myself; I infer that the statement is true.

Q. Now, let me get your idea on the subject, as to whether an officer in one company should be permitted also to be an officer in another company; that is, in a life insurance company? A. That is a mere matter of opinion; I have no opinion to express about it.

Q. What is your idea about it; whether they should be permitted to do so in the interests of a successful company? A. I think the officers should be confined to a single company; that is my idea about it; but it is only my opinion.

By Mr. MOAK:

Q. I understood you to say there were 7,501 forfeited policies? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In 1876? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In that do you include this 4,517 that were surrendered? A. Yes, sir.

Q. They are included in this 7,501? A. Yes, sir; that is to say, those are policies that cease to exist.

Q. Now, the whole 7,501, can you tell us the aggregate amount of insurance which they represent? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much do they represent? A. Twenty-two millions, six hundred and sixty-six thousand and fifty dollars.

Q. Can you tell us how much the 4,517 policies you called surrendered policies represented? A. No; they are not separate; they are all included in this statement.,

Q. What is the usual rate of compensation paid to agents, in procuring a policy, out of the first premium? A. That is varied at different times; thirty per cent I think is the present amount, with six renewals at seven and a-half per cent.

Q. Then, after that, does the agent's interest in the premium cease entirely? A. Yes-let me make myself understood; that is what we pay to the general agents, but the local agents receive their compensation from the general agents.

Q. The company allows the general agent, who sends in the insurance, thirty per cent out of the first premium? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then allows him seven and a-half per cent on six subsequent renewals? A. That is on life policies.

Q. And then agent's interests ceases entirely? A. Yes, sir; after seven years, but they are allowed a certain sum for collection; I think it is two per cent.

Q. Is that allowed in addition to the seven and a half per-cent? A. No, sir; that is for collecting the money.

Q. What is the highest amount your company has paid to agents for procuring insurance? A. I think the amount I have stated is the highest rate; according to my recollection it is.

Q. Do your policies usually contain a clause that when the premium is not paid at the time it is due, that the insured may, within thirty days, obtain a paid-up policy on application? A. No, not in general; it is not a general term of our policy.

Q. Then there is nothing in your policy giving the insured the right to a paid up policy if he does not pay up the premium? A.