tion I call on the heads of proper departments for it and then go to the books; as to the detail of keeping the books I know nothing. Q. Then, if I understand you, the number you get from the book which is furnished to you by other employes? A. Yes, and which I believe to be true.

Q. That is the only knowledge you have on the subject? A. Yes, sir.

Q. As I understood you, those policies represent $301,278,037 insurance? A. No, sir; I expressly stated that that was the cash value of the insurance.

Q. That is to say, that is the present value of them? A. Yes, of the insurance and the cash value; are you speaking now of the cash values?

Q. No; I am speaking of the 92,125 policies. A. That is the amount of the policies we have incurring; about $300,000,000.

Q. Then the $301,278,037 covers the entire amount insured by all these policies? A. Exactly.

Q. But that does not give the present cash value of them? A. Oh, no.

Q. I understood you to say that in 1876 there was issued 8,120 policies? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Insuring the persons to whom the policies were issued to the amount of $15,136,703.36; is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. Now, as to the number of policies issued, and amount insured, you obtained that the same as the others, of which you have spoken ? A. From the books.

Q. And you said that during the year 1876 there was surrendered 4,517 policies, the value of which and for which they was paid $3,619,623.18? A. That is right.

Q. Now let me ask you whether you have any knowledge as to whether the company has had any persons in its employ for the purpose of procuring those surrenders? A. Well, I can't say positively.

Q. In other words, what I want to get at is this A. I understand perfectly what you want; the company, I am certain, has never countenanced the employment of anybody to procure the surrender of the policies; on the contrary, it has assisted persons to every possible extent within a range of years to keep their policies alive; I regard it as a matter of great importance to the companies to keep their policies alive, for as actuary for the company, I look at it that the getting of a policy by surrender is the stopping of a little rill through which is to flow the means to pay the death claims; I know it has been done recently by those records, and so forth, which, by the way, is a new word introduced into life insurance, but we have no sympathy with it.

Q. The question is, has the company had any one in its employ in the last year to obtain the surrender of policies? A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Were those surrenders, so far as you know, all of them voluntary surrenders without an application by the company or any one in its interest? A. So far as I understand they were voluntary surrenders on the part of the holders.

Q. Was any thing paid for procuring the surrenders, except what was paid to the parties? A. Not to my knowledge, nor do I believe any thing was paid except to the parties themselves; whatever the agents may have extorted I cannot say, but I know if an agent was detected in doing so he would be dismissed from the company.

Q. I understood you to say you had paid physicians for examinations, during the past year, $38,569.31; if there were 8,120 Rolicies issued that would be nearly five dollars for each policy, would it not? A. Well, I have not made a computation, but that is the amount taken from the books actually paid; we paid some a little more, some a little less.

Q. What is the usual price paid by your company for physicians' examinations? A. As near as I can remember, five dollars.

Q. Throughout the country? A. Yes, sir; from two to five; they

vary.

Q. That is paid out of the premium, is it? the insurer.

A. That is paid by

Q. That is, the company receives the premium in addition to this amount? A, Yes, sir.

Q. So really this is not an expenditure by the company? A: No, but we do examine a great many by our examiners and don't charge any thing for it.

By Mr. COWDIN:

Q. That is in New York? A. Yes; but it might be that there is a charge by those local physicians, but I think persons who have been re-examined for insurance were always required to pay the charges.

By Mr. MOAK:

Q. What you mean by that I suppose is, if a party insured has not paid his premium, and it is a question under deliberation whether the policy shall be allowed to be continued, you require a re-examination? A. Yes, sir; and it is always at his own expense.

Q. Then really this $38,569.31 is an expenditure by the insured rather than the company? A. I don't know about that; I don't know but that may have been stopped out from the premiums by others; I am not certain, and cannot tell you the amount paid by the insurer and by the company.

Q. You don't mean to say, considering the manner in which you make the examination at the expense of the insurer, that the company has paid that in addition? A. That, I understand, is the

amount the company has paid.

Q. Independent of the amount paid by the insurer? A. Yes. Q. Then what was the amount paid by the company for, if every person applying paid for his examination? A. I don't know that I

exactly understand that question.

Q. Well, I will explain it to you; you have said that there were 8,120 polices issued in 1876? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Each of those persons was examined by a local physician? A. Yes; either by our own physician or a local physician.

Q. Either by your own examiner in New York or one of your other examiners? A. Yes.

Q. And each person so examined was required to pay out of his own pocket for the examination? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then no part of the examination of the 8,120 persons was paid by the company? A. No.

Mr. LLOYD-I think Mr. Bartlett is in error there. The expense of the medical examination is paid by the company, and not paid by the party applying for the insurance.

By Mr. MOAK:

Q. Then it is perhaps fair the witness should state he was mistaken in saying the examination was paid by the insurer; is that the fact? A. Yes, sir; I was mistaken.

Q. Would that explain this $38,569.31 fees that was paid by the company to all those examiners during 1876? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Except to the examiner at the leading office? A. Yes, sir; I wish to have that straightened; I state that where a policy has lapsed, and he wishes to be reinstated, then a new examination is required, and in such case the applicant is required to pay the expense of the examination.

Q. I understood you to say that during the past year of 1876 there were 471 loans made by your company on bond and mortgage? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Amounting to $3,635,400? A. Yes, sir.

Q. They are loans in the city of New York only? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in those cases the entire expense of searching the titles and of preparing the papers is paid by the company? A. They are done by the officers of the lower department.

Q. The expenses are paid by the company, are they, in general salary? A. They are paid in salary, except the expense of searching the titles.

Q. The searches are paid for by the borrower? A. Yes; to the attorney who makes the search.

Q. Who makes the search usually, the law officers of the company or the attorneys of the borrower? A. The attorneys communicate generally with the company; for instance, at White Plains we can't attend to it in New York, and have an agent there.

Q. Well, take an instance in New York, and say a person applies for a loan of $20,000? A. We apply to the clerk for a search, and the fees are a regular charge to the borrower.

Q. Is any thing charged except the fees paid to the clerk for the search? A. Not that I know of.

Q. The $3,635,400 were loans in the city of New York only during the past year, I understood you to say? A. I believe so.

Q. You said there was $2,694,043.34 used in payment of annual premiums from the cash balance remaining to the credit of the insured, as I understood you? A. No, sir; let me explain that; at

the end of every year we make what is called a dividend, and the cash amount of that dividend is computed to the reversions, and is credited to the policyholder; and when the anniversary of the policy comes around, and he wants to pay his premium, he may not have the money, and would want to use that credit to pay his premium; that is then reconverted into cash and his premium is paid with it.

Q. Then, nominally, although not actually, you pay him so much money and he applies it on his premium? A. Yes, we cancel his reversion to that extent.

Q. You mean you cancel his premium to the extent of what you call the reversion? A. No; the reversion is the thing to be paid at death; the present cash value of the reversion is quite another thing; it is the present cash value that is paid to him.

Q. I understood you at the end of every year you gave certain. credits to what you call the insured? A. Let me explain that, so that I can make myself clear; as I said before, at the end of the year we make the dividends, and we notify our policyholders at the anniversary of the policies that they have the dividends so that they may use them; I have interested myself to get them in advance so that our policyholders may use them as so much cash when they were declared; they rest for thirty days, and if used within that time they are cash dividends themselves, and we pay that over to the policyholder, and he pays us for his premium from that money; if not used in thirty days we enter this as reversion; that goes on as a new insurance, and is equivalent as a new policy, and so much to his credit; after awhile, say the next year, he may have the same amount of dividends, but not enough to add to it to pay his premium, as it is not always the case that the reversion will pay the premium, he says then reconvert my old conversion and get me enough money to eke out my premium with.

Q. Say I am insured in your company for $10,000; at the end of the year you declare me a dividend for how much; say I have been in ten years? A. Well, we will declare you a dividend of fifty or sixty per cent of the premium; more than that, perhaps; sixty or seventy, perhaps.

Q. That amount you give me credit for on your books? A. Yes. Q. What do you call it-dividend or reversion? A. We have on your special account a cash dividend.

Q. Call it dividend; is that what you call it? A. It is a misnomer; it is cash paid.

Q. Well, that you call a dividend? A. Yes, sir.

Q. We will assume my premium becomes due within thirty days; I may have the $150, or whatever amount it is, credited on the premium if I choose to do so? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you mean this $2,694,043.34 was used in that way to pay up policies? A. No; I do not wish to be understood that all was, but a very large portion was used that way; as I stated, you will come to the company and may be a little pressed, and it may not be convenient for you to pay your premium; it may be more convenient for you to use the money another way; you say I have a reversion

standing to the account of dividend, and I want that converted into cash and the premium paid, and that embraces all those paid in that

way.

Q. Does this $2,694,043.34 include all the dividends which your company declared to your stockholders in 1876? A. No, sir, nothing like it; we declared dividends amounting to over $4,000,000.

Q. Have you any means of stating the entire dividend declared during the year? A. Yes; I can give it at once.

Q. And give the year, please? A. I have a paper here which I think contains it; I know it is $3,700,000 odd this year.

Q. That was the aggregate of all the dividends declared? A. Yes; I think so; I am very anxious that you should get all these points out; I see it is $3,701,700.

Q. Now, I understood you to say your company had paid during 1876 $3,311,651.02 losses? A. For death claims."

Q. Yes; I mean losses in insurance? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was any portion of that amount litigated? A. I think probably some portion was, but what amount I cannot state.

Q. Have you any means of stating what the proportion of the amount was? A. It is very small; I forget the proportion, but I know it is exceedingly small; the company did not litigate to exceed eight or ten cases during the year, to my best recollection.

Q. How much would they represent in amount, the whole eight or ten, probably? A. I should not think more than $25,000 or $30,000; perhaps $40,000.

By Mr. LANG:

Q. Does he mean by that that they are the only contested cases on the policies of insurers? A. Yes, sir; the only cases.

By Mr. MOAK:

Q. And they were all the cases where policies were litigated on losses during the last year? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, let me ask you whether that would represent, say for the past ten years, a fair proportion of the amount of claim your company has litigated? A. I should think it would; it is a matter I don't concern myself a great deal with, as being connected with the actuary's department, it does not come under my immediate notice; I am not certain about it.

Q. You stated that to this $3,311,651.02 there was to be added. $439,708.18; I don't quite understand why that was to be added? A. Those are additions; I just told you those dividends are given or converted into reversions; they form new policies of insurance, and that is the amount.

Q. Then you mean that in addition to the first amount of over $3,000,000 you paid $439,708.18 to the same parties? A. Yes, sir; in addition.

Q. Then that would make the entire amount paid by your company during the year, as I make it, $3,751,359.20? A. Yes, sir; something about that.