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(By letter dated September 26, 1963, addressed to Harold H. Greene, Department of Justice, from Owen B. Kiernan, Massachusetts Commissioner of Education, such statistics are not available. This letter is printed on p. 483 of the appendix.)

The CHAIRMAN. I warrant if you put the information on Negro schoolteachers placed in the record, in the Eastern States and also in the Southern States, you will find that you have more Negro teachers in my State than in all the Eastern States combined.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I thought these figures would be of interest.

Senator ERVIN. Yes, sir; they are of interest, but they would be far more illuminating if the Department of Justice with all the manpower at its disposal would bring in figures showing the school attendance records of children under 25 years of age and the number of adults in each age group above 25 years of age who have not attended school. I believe that you will find that most of the people in North Carolina of whom you speak are people up in their 70's or 80's. That would be my guess. I had hoped that we would be along a little further in our consideration of the bill. Maybe we should go back to the bill and quit throwing mud or statistics at each others' States.

Mr. Attorney General

Attorney General KENNEDY. I will submit those, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted.

(The material referred to follows:)

Persons 25 years old and over with less than 5 years of school completed

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Source: U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare based on 1960 census data supplied by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census.

Years of school completed by persons 25 years old and over, by color, 19601

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1 For the United States and 16 States requiring literacy tests.

531,758 2,560

6, 192

57

18, 558 147

30,009 190

28, 689

109, 845

108, 480

154, 908

46,064

29, 013

155

402

565

698

233

113

Years of school completed, by persons 25 years old and over, by color, 1960 --Continued

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Senator ERVIN. Mr. Attorney General, I would have only one objection to title IV, which would establish a community relations service, if it were not for the fact that no Federal agency ever created has ever gone out of existence and none of them are ever satisfied with the powers that they have. Under the bill, the community relations service would be given power of conciliation only. But if it should follow the example of every other Federal agency created between the beginning of this country and this moment, it will be back here very soon asking Congress for coercive powers in addition to the conciliatory powers which this bill will confer upon it. My other objection to this title is that under it, a centralized Federal Government would send its employees abroad throughout the length and breadth of the land in numbers like the locusts to eat up the substance of the taxpayers and intermeddle in affairs and controversies which can be solved satisfactorily only by voluntary action on the part of the people living in communities.

I oppose title V, which would extend the life of the Civil Rights Commission for two reasons. In the first place, the activities of the Civil Rights Commission duplicate in significant respects the activities of the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice. If the community relations service to be established by title IV of the bill comes into existence, we will witness a triplication of activities on the part of the Civil Rights Commission, the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice and the community relations service. I am unable to comprehend why it should be thought that the Federal Government should maintain three separate agencies to deal with racial problems-especially since all of the activities of all other Federal agencies are being diverted from their primary purposes to deal with such problems.

Besides, all of the recommendations of the Civil Rights Commission I can recall at the moment are subject to the same defect which is inherent in this and all other so-called civil rights bills. All of its recommendations for legislation I can now recall are based on the unhappy thesis that the only way to promote the civil rights of some Americans is to rob all other Americans of civil rights equally as precious and to reduce the States to meaningless zeroes on the map. I will not make any further comment in respect to the Civil Rights Commission because the Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights of the Senate Judiciary Committee has considered in detail the bills to extend the life of the Commission.

This brings me to title VI, which deals with what is called nondiscrimination in federally assisted programs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read this whole section.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, may I interrupt?
Senator ERVIN. Yes, sir.

Attorney General KENNEDY. We are working at the present time, Senator, on new language for title VI and have made some progress. There are Members of Congress and the Senate who have sponsored this bill as a whole, which includes title VI. I think the language we are working on now is perhaps an improvement over the language presently in title VI. I wonder if we could come back to title VI after we have submitted the new language and we have had a chance to discuss it in full? I would like first to have it gone over with the Mem

bers of the House and Senate who have sponsored this legislation and see if the changes meet with their approval.

Senator ERVIN. That is satisfactory. I think it would be impossible to make any changes in title VI which would not better it.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I appreciate your vote of confidence. Senator KEATING. Mr. Chairman, would the Senator yield at that point?

Senator ERVIN. Yes.

Senator KEATING. I might express the hope, Mr. Attorney General, that in considering the modification of title VI, you would give careful consideration to the views of some of us who have felt that it was necessary to make the sanction mandatory rather than discretionary and to give as Federal mandate that if funds are collected from all of our citizens, they can not be used for facilities which deprive some of our citizens of their use. As worded now, it leaves some of it in the hands of a particular officer who is handling the program and to date the experience in that regard from the point of view of the Senator from New York, and I am sure not from the point of view of the Senator from North Carolina, has been that it has been rather unsatisfactory.

It has been rather unsatisfactory. I think it would be desirable to provide that no funds can be used. Then it leaves no problem with a particular administrator of the program.

I have language which I would be happy to submit to you and I will take the privilege of doing so, if I may, while you are considering this matter.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Thank you, Senator.

Senator SCOTT. Mr. Chairman, would the Senator from North Carolina yield?

Senator ERVIN. Yes; provided the Senator will forego the right to charge me hereafter with participating in a filibuster during the time he takes.

Senator Scorr. I am perfectly willing to agree with the Senator from North Carolina that anything which the Senator from Pennsylvania says is not engaging in a filibuster.

I would like to express the same hope as expressed by the Senator from New York. Some of us as recently as yesterday suggested publicly that this title was not particularly strong and not particularly effective.

We have, a number of us, discussed changes in wording which would translate this section from being largely discretionary into mandatory provisions and I would hope that the Department of Justice would give very serious consideration to making this section meaningful rather than expostulatory or purely persuasive. Since the Senator from North Carolina has said that he cannot think of any suggestions to change this section which would not make it better, I would hope that the Senator from North Carolina would agree that the suggestions of the Senator from New York and myself will indeed make this section better and I thank the Senator from North Carolina for yielding.

Senator ERVIN. I would like to amend my remark-
Senator SCOTT. I thought the Senator would.

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